Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

Are you aware of the cognitive distortion known as 'catastrophising'?

Is suggest looking it up and applying it to your last paragraph.

I don't think your French friends are completely wrong though. Migrants within the EU have a different status to non EU migrants. It's just a fact.

Oh they're 100% correct.

I was pointing out how people's perspectives of our crisis change based on their own situation and how one person's 'immigrant taking up space' is another person's entitlement for being part of the EU.

I can also fully admit my opinion may be different if I didn't own a house, or if I was an asylum seeker or if I was from another planet.

But it's not catastrophising when we accept planes can't be over loaded or boats because they might sink?

We understand load bearing when it comes to engineering and it's not catastrophising to say things would fall down without it.

But In terms of the infrastructure of the country, no limits, no need for critical thinking? It's catastrophising to say if we keep loading it woth people it will break?

All because you like more brown faces than white in your office, so you can feel more cosmopolitan?

I'm normally migration positive, but look at the case study I'm giving you

Pre 2012 many sick/elderly were cared for voluntarily by relative that was fully aware of there needs for a paltry sum of 200 p/W

Now many are herded into care homes that can cost anything up to 2,500 p/W. There sourcing foreign labour and paying salaries incompatible with life in Ireland. There wages need to be topped up to afford rent, family income supplement etc all at great cost to the taxpayer.

The taxpayer has to pay much higher rent because of the housing deficit, higher taxes because the care of elderly that used to cost 200p/w, now with subsidies and cost of living payments is close to 3k. Far more homes are required due to more foreign staff, and a strong liklihood that the patients home now lies empty and unused, whereas the old system was most likely housing neutral

One nursing home provider alone had 355 work permits granted this year.

Why has the state disincentivised the extreme low cost solution in favour of the massively expensive solution plus the associated housing implications ?

The population we have already needs increased services. We need people to deliver those services.

Infrastructure is developed over time. We arent going to stand still economically and face down a recession by choice, but we do need to work on finding a balance with immigration.

You can manage immigration to enable the delivery of services and infrastructure.

What is your suggestion? Block all immigrants coming into the country?

If they are here they are not employed, because we have plenty of job vacancies in almost every sector.

The same question keep being asked: What is the right amount of immigration for Ireland?

People seem to be arguing for or against immigration, but the real requirement is somewhere inbetween.

If I thought immigration was being managed I'd have no issue.

But it's not, they're not even lying. Their stated position is, we can't stop the world arriving on our shoes either legally of illegally and shur why would we want to, aren't they all a great bunch of lads.

It would not.

But ending all immigration tomorrow would also destroy the countries services & infrastructure and lead to an exodus of MNCs leaving our shores, because they cant hire the correct talent in Ireland any longer.

Back to the 80s we go...

I think most fair minded people would agree that immigration is necessary, but that it should be managed in line with the state's requirements.

I would say it is required if we want to keep the MNCs here and all the CT and high income tax that comes with them.

There is not a chance in hell the large MNCs would be based here if they could not hire staff from abroad.

Not all immigrants have equal levels of employment in Ireland. There are massive discrepancies between national orgins:

That said, nobody is trying to argue for or against immigration as a whole here or anywhere else, thats a typical straw man made by you and other people trying to claim we can't control immigration at all.

There are worlds of differences within the headline of "immigration" - returning Irish citizens, EU citizens, legal non-EU immigrants arriving with a work visa, and illegal immigration / asylum seekers. The first two categories can't be limited, and most of the third category people wouldn't want to limit - nurses, doctors, highly paid tech workers etc. The last one is the issue.

Copying Denmark and reducing the numbers of asylum seekers arriving by 20,000+ a year would save the state over €1bn a year in housing costs alone (nevermind other benefits), be the equivalent of building 10,000 odd extra housing units a year, and would impact very very few skilled jobs. Its literally all positive, in particular in regard to the Irish housing market.

The post below yours demonstrates that some people ARE aruging to reduce all types of immigration, including returning irish, I assume.

The fourth category related to asylum immigration is the one that costs the state the most money, but the state still have to prepare for some level of asylum seekers arriving.

Even if the govt implemented a Denmark asylum policy (which wont happen, we all know that) they would still need to prepare for some level of asylum immigration, including application processing accommodation, housing for succesful applicants etc.

What number of applicants do you think we should prepare for and how would we provide the infrastructure?

Before I reply, please let me ask you not to use strawman arguments or a "begging the question" fallacy with me or anyone else on these boards. It's disrespectful, and extremely deleterious to any discussion.

Legal immigration could be reduced without in anyway restricting Irish citizens or EU citizens, which would be legally impossible and in the case of Irish citizens, reprehensible.

From the CSO:

• The population in Ireland rose by 98,700 people which was the largest 12-month increase since 2008.
• There were 149,200 immigrants which was a 17-year high. This was the third successive 12-month period where over 100,000 people immigrated to Ireland. 
• Of those immigrants, 30,000 were returning Irish citizens, 27,000 were other EU citizens, and 5,400 were UK citizens. The remaining 86,800 immigrants were citizens of other countries.
• Over 69,000 people departed the State in the 12 months to April 2024, compared with 64,000 in the same period of 2023. This is the highest emigration figure since 2015. 
• There was a natural increase of 19,400 people in the State comprised of 54,200 births and 34,800 deaths.

That 86,800 figure should be where immigration restrictions should be targeted.