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Energy infrastructure

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 852 ✭✭✭gossamerfabric


    I direct you to the story above about stone soup.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 852 ✭✭✭gossamerfabric


    I am deeply concerned by Wind operators running industrial battery storage installations. They are another ENRON in the making.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 236 ✭✭scrabtom




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,723 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Why would the Moyle be limited to 204MW export last night? A week ago 408MW was being exported, and 440MW imported in between. From the graph it looks like there was more that could have been exported and there was probably some curtailment between 00:00 and 06:00.

    image.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 985 ✭✭✭medoc


    Possibly high wind in Scotland at the time meant grid curtailment at that time. They won’t import from us if they have too much of their own wind at that time. The interconnected to Wales will help us to export more at times like that. And the France one definitely will.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 852 ✭✭✭gossamerfabric


    Not Enron's collapse but the fückery they got up to before they collapsed determing market prices, creating artificial scarcities. I can see owners of wind and battery plants astroturfing communities to prevent further wind and battery plants being built due to Ireland's planning laws and then controlling supply to influence the market price running rings around CER/CRU. The interconnectors will be there but the grid will be compelled to use the Wind energy where available which gives them power to act out.

    It would be characterized as a conspiracy theory except we have evidence that deregulation of the energy market elsewhere has not benefitted the public.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,060 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Astroturfing communities ?

    Can't say that phrase is really on my radar ,

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 852 ✭✭✭gossamerfabric


    Who do you think donates to anti-whatever local protest groups. Sean Quinn would finance anyone who would object to any proposed cement factories.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,509 ✭✭✭jlang


    I suppose the longer you can get paid gas rates for your wind power, the quicker you pay off the installation and just bank pure profit. It must be worth occasionally being unable to sell all your generation. Build too much storage/interconnection/robustness and you might jeopardise that link to stable high prices.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,413 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    The RESS auctions now set a fixed price for generation. The deal is that the State will pay the operator to keep income at the agreed strike price, but against that they will also tax away any higher prices. An operator goes in there knowing what they'll get for their investment over the initial period. After that time, market pricing will take effect, and yes, if gas is still dominant, they can make a killing.

    But energy-storage operators are not the same people as the generators: in a way, they are in competition with the wind operators, as they can buy the surplus electricity from the wind operators when there's nobody else to buy it, then sell it at a nice profit against the same wind operators when there is high demand.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 852 ✭✭✭gossamerfabric


    Tell me FuturEnergy Ireland aren't trying to be both generator and energy storage operators.

    https://www.derryjournal.com/news/environment/planning-application-submitted-for-first-iron-air-battery-storage-project-in-europe-south-west-of-buncrana-4803905

    https://futurenergyireland.ie/about/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭Jakey Rolling


    Anyone else subscribe to ESB Networks "Flex Events"?

    I'm perplexed, as they have asked me to use more electricity between 1000-1200 today, however Eirgrid dashboard shows 750MW net import ATM.

    I'll get my €5 for responding either way, just wonder what is the reasoning behind this?

    100412.2526@compuserve.com



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,259 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    The wind is quite high @ 12:00 is shown 3.9GW the system demand then is 6 GW So an SNSP of 65% which is quite close to the limits, so depending on what Thermal generation is on , they would have to curtail wind. Driving up demand would mean that Wind does not have to be curtailed and the price will be low



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 146 ✭✭fael


    Nothing really important but just an interesting nugget about utility-scale PV in Ireland:

    "PV installations are growing so quickly (from such a low base) that similar solar power was generated in October this year than June 2023."

    https://bsky.app/profile/hannahdaly.ie/post/3lcz7yaepw226



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,624 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    But energy-storage operators are not the same people as the generators: in a way, they are in competition with the wind operators, as they can buy the surplus electricity from the wind operators when there's nobody else to buy it, then sell it at a nice profit against the same wind operators when there is high demand.

    A lot of wind generators are looking to include BESS in their projects now and it makes a lot of sense.

    You need to build a grid connection for your new (or existing) wind farm, so you can reuse that for your BESS. Charge up the BESS directly from the wind turbines when the wind is blowing hard, specially if you are into a curtailment scenario and then discharge the batteries onto your grid connection when the wind isn't blowing and generating.

    Saves on all the cost and difficulty of getting a grid connection for a dedicated BESS project. I suspect we will see them retrofitted to a lot of existing wind farms too.

    It allows those wind operators to play in that "arbitrage market" too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 852 ✭✭✭gossamerfabric


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/12/11/miliband-bails-wind-turbine-factory-as-demand-falls/

    Offshore wind industry is deeply unhealthy.

    Amount of bailout is hidden and a Twitterer is saying that Milliband bailed them out coincidentally while Neil Kinnock's Son's Wife is a board member of Vestas.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 852 ✭✭✭gossamerfabric


    Who says those batteries will only be charged from the Wind Turbines. They'll be charged from hydrocarbons when the prices are low and the consumer won't be able to differentiate between a co2 neutral electron and a "dirty" one.

    Also note that you can't source a battery factory at an offshore wind park making offshore even less attractive to the wind oligarchs. Rural Ireland will become a wasteland of windparks and battery plants to serve the limitless appetite of urban dwellers.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,624 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Wind is by far the cheapest source of electricity (well solar is cheaper), while Hydrocarbons are by far the most expensive. You don't charge BESS with expensive electricity!

    Who said anything about offshore wind farms! Ireland is full of onshore wind farms and more are being built, you co-locate the BESS with those onshore wind farms (and solar farms too).

    Though for offshore wind farms you could place BESS systems on land near by where the grid connection comes ashore, tying into the same grid connection.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,999 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Wind and Solar are not the cheapest sources of electricity, because of their poor capacity factors. The cost of wind and solar is only calculated and reported on based on when they are generating electricity. Because they are intermittent, reliable fossil fuels have to be burnt to fill in the gap - that massive cost is not included in the calculation of the cost of the electricity they produce.

    There are hidden costs never considered, like all the grid stability infrastructure the grids needs to not fall over when intermittent sources are used at scale.

    This notion of 'cheap' renewables is an utter farce. Utility scale solar in Ireland costs €1 b per GW of capacity, but it's actual output is only 11% of that capacity. The calculation of the cost of solar never takes into account the cost of generating the other 89%.

    image_2024-12-13_121447730.png

    This is the situation right now - that cheap wind is generating nothing, but hey, it's supposedly cheap.

    I bought a really cheap car, it only starts and manages to gets me to work one day in ten, it was a lot cheaper than buying a car that starts every single day and gets me to work every single day - I am so smart having such a cheap car and laugh at all the fools who bought expensive reliable ones - just don't mention the bill for the taxis.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,624 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I'm sorry, you are just wrong once again. Solar and wind are now the cheapest forms of electricity generation. That is simply a fact.

    The topic is how you charge up the batteries in a BESS system. And the answer to that is you use the cheapest form of electricity generation available, which is renewables. Capacity factors and intermittent don't come into this for BESS, because BESS don't care, when lots of wind is available and thus prices are low, they will happily charge up. When their is no wind available, prices are high, the batteries stop charging and in fact if the price is high enough, they sell their stored power onto the grid. That is literally the whole point of BESS.

    This is a very basic knowledge of how the energy market works and how BESS works.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 852 ✭✭✭gossamerfabric


    Please provide wholesale price per kWh or mWh of wind generated electricity with source. You claim that wind electricity is cheap and consumers are compelled to consume it but somehow we have the second highest cost per unit in Europe.

    Gas is now cheaper per cubic meter than when the war in Ukraine started but you claim that it is the most expensive source of electricity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,999 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    The ESB calculated our future energy requirements using renewables would require a trillion Tesla power walls equivalent of battery storage add the cost of batteries to wind and solar and they are literally unaffordable.

    The Tesla Powerwall 3 is $13,500 Even richest person ever Musk with his $800 billion couldn't make a dent in that $13,500 trillion purchase - the entire EU with it's 430 million population couldn't afford it. BESS can not leverage renewables into making them a net zero energy solution.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,624 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Ah, I see, no response to the factual information I supplied, just more nonsense.

    Err.. no! While the price of gas has come down from the peak of 2022, it is still averaging about 2 to 3 times higher then the long term historical price.

    Gas has been averaging between about 30 and 45 for the past year, while in the 2010's it tended to range between 10 and 20.

    This is all easily seen on 10 year graphs of the Dutch TTF Natural Gas market.

    Europe now needs to import lots of LNG from the US instead of piped from Russia (we still get some piped from Norway, etc.). Fundamentally LNG shipped gas will always be more expensive then piped gas due to the LNG process and the shipping costs. So switching to LNG has baked in a roughly doubling of gas prices.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,999 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    What factual information, you just made an erroneous claim that solar and wind are the cheapest sources? The LCOE costing model is fallacious when applied to renewables, particularly when the costs involved in the idiocy of trying to leverage them into being base-load sources are also taken into consideration.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,060 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Do you really think we'd be putting in Tesla power walls ?

    I'm sure you've heard of this puppy

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,060 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Incidentally - your cheap car analogy,

    There's 2 ways of thinking of wind turbines - the cheap unreliable banger

    Or

    You just bought a bike, it's cheap ,it's quick has health benefits, but it can't do everything it's just a bike - so you invest in an e-bike , more money,obviously need to plug it in , but it doesn't kill you on the hills and headwinds.. you still have a family car , and you can use it on stormy days and for long trips , but you're using very little fuel and doing low milage ,

    You might also have a leap card , for when you get the train into town -

    None of them are exclusive - your leap card doesn't bitch that you use a bike , your car doesn't care if you go to town without it - they're just things - part of a system

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,060 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Incidentally I do think offshore wind is too expensive (maybe later but not now ) , and the hydrogen economy doesn't exist,

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,999 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    I have heard of it. It took less than a year from the SA grid falling over due to over dependence on renewables to that facility being commissioned, a process that would have taken a decade or more in this dysfunctional country.

    Hornsdale when commissioned could discharge for 77 minutes. Batteries can not affordably store and supply the multi TWh of energy you need to convert intermittent renewables into baseload solutions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,999 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    So you'd agree that Eamon's stupid plan for 37 GW of OSW costing €100 billion has knobs on it?

    Dogger Bank OSW farm was in 2021 expected to cost €3.03 B per GW, so * 37 would be €112.2 Billion. The fool can't even do basic maths, which surprises me not at all.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 359 ✭✭CoffeeImpala


    13.5PWh of storage is about 440 times Ireland's 2023 metered electricity use of 30.6TWh. Was your source assuming that all fossil fuel energy use was going to be replaced by electricity?

    Tesla megapacks are a lot cheaper per kWh than Powerwalls.



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