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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,979 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Well obviously this year's six nations will have a big impact on things. I think right now both are leading contenders. If they have a six nations like last year I think both will be right at the top in their positions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,982 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Lot of rugby to be played between now and then, but at the moment I'd have Tuipolotu and Henshaw at 12 and 13 respectively. And that's off the back of Ringrose playing brilliantly against NZ (albeit one missed tackle aside).

    I think there's a decent chance Farrell will pick Lowe, but it wouldn't surprise me to see VdM ahead of him in the starting 15 and suspect that's who he'll go with.

    Mad to think this could be VdF's first Lions tour.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,631 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    I just can't see Farrell taking VdM, he's so deficient compared to his peers, and doesn't do the things Farrell likes his backs to do



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,051 ✭✭✭50HX


    I don't think VdM is a Farrell type of winger, Defensively he is average & goes missing for large parts of games

    Darcy Graham is in better form at the minute.

    Ah the Lions debate...separate thread for this.

    Just to add I think it's mental stuff that's been written about Ringrose, he's the best 13 available. Has to start at 13 for club,country & lions imo.

    Henshaw has the ability to play 13 as well but not as effectively as Ringrose



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,979 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    How many games has Ringrose played for Ireland in the last 12 months? He's very injury prone.

    How can you pick a guy whose played very little?

    I agree he's a great player but if he gets injured again before or during the six nations he's not going.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,688 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    I would have said the opposite. On this season's form I think McCarthy and Lowe are on the outsideand need big 6N tournament to get into the Lions conversation.

    Ringrose is an interesting one. Very good player but I feel he is rated a lot higher in Ireland than in other countries. I think the perception is that he is a good, solid player without being great.

    Post edited by Yeah_Right on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,051 ✭✭✭50HX


    Without checking I'd say he's alot less injury prone than Henshaw in general



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,631 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    I've always thought Henshaw the superior player. He has more strings to his bow, better passer and has better vision. He is a much more powerful carrier, he was unstoppable this autumn, even more so than Aki. I find Ringrose is too prone to get tunnel vision with the ball



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,852 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Darcy Graham is just a better player.

    Though yes, I don't think a separate thread is a terrible idea.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,309 ✭✭✭TRC10


    McCarthy has done nothing since February to warrant selection for the Lions



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  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,491 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    People get too caught up with what VDM and Russell might have been like years ago.

    Russell is a quality operator and has improved no end on his consistency and defence. He'd be playing behind a better pack than with Scotland and won't have to force things. Barring injury he starts every day of the week. Marcus Smith has really come into his own this year and will make an able deputy. Farrell's not been great at Racing (not much of a surprise with their history) and I don't think he's needed.

    VDM is Scotland's leading try scorer and has pace and strength to burn. He's also a much better playmaker than people give him credit for and he was excellent against Australia. He'll be up against Feyi-Waboso on the left wing and Lowe won't travel unless he picks it up hugely over the next few months. Graham, if he's fit, will also travel and should start.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,671 ✭✭✭P.Walnuts


    Agreed, VDM can do things this incarnation of Lowe just.....can't. I'd be amazed if he didn't travel



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,109 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    I'd agree with those. I really think that Ireland are better than the sum of their parts but Scotland are far worse.

    I'd have Russel easily starting and Graham and vdm for the wings. Huw Jones is in the conversation to start.

    The only Irish back I'd have nailed on to start is Keenan and thats because I don't think jgp was great during the autumn.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,804 ✭✭✭All_in_Flynn


    On what planet is Huw Jones even in the conversation as being an option ahead of Ringrose or Henshaw? He is miles behind either of them. How many times has he come against Ireland or Leinster and played better than his counterpart? It's close to zero anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭ersatz


    if Ireland win the 6N then plenty of the team travel, including 3 centres. Even playing poorly the only comparable performance by 6N teams in the Autumn was Scotland against Australia and head to head only the Scottish wingers and Russel are ahead of their Irish counterparts. If we lose 2 matches then probably Henshaw, Keenan and 1 of the younger lads like Pendergast or Osborne from the backs go with an eye on the future.

    From the forwards It will be very hard for Farrell to leave the Tadghs, VDF, Doris, Porter, Sheehan and Ryan/Joe at home.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,982 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    There is no "eye to the future" when it comes to the Lions tho, that's what often makes squad selection more intriguing. It's probably the most "win for the here and now" selection in all of Test rugby.

    Fwiw, even if Ireland win the 6 Nations, I'd still be pretty surprised if all 3 centres get picked.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,631 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    This is objectively nonsense. Lowe is a much better player all round than VdM. His defense and kicking game alone are lightyears ahead



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,865 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    Lowe missed a rake of tackles during the AIs and was poor enough overall I thought and he was dropped for defence before when he first came into the team. He's been pretty solid in the intermittent period but I don't think it's the lightyears difference you're making out.

    Much better kicker no doubt, streets ahead there



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,852 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I agree on Russell and Graham but vehemently disagree on VDM. He is still a one trick show pony who floats in and out of games as he feels like it and remains a massive defensive liability.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,631 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Fair analysis of the autumn, but I'd caveat that the whole team was poor. Lowe has shown over the last few years he's a much more complete and hard working player than VdM.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,671 ✭✭✭P.Walnuts


    You suggested Frawley might travel.

    So I hope you'll understand if I don't consider you a serious person.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,631 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    I mentioned Frawley in comparison to Crowley, in that his versatility gives him an advantage. I don't think it's outlandish that Frawley could travel mind you, Farrell clearly likes him, and nailing 2 DGs to beat SA is the sort of thing that makes a player stand out.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,852 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    MOD: ok Lions thread is open so let's move that discussion there thanks



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Eye to Ireland’s future. Farrell is very pragmatic and if he’s looking for bolters they’ll come from Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,979 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    I'm not sure, they both are very injury prone but Henshaw played the whole six nations this year.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,491 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    He's scored each of the last three times he's played Leinster and Ireland.

    You might prefer Ringrose and Henshaw but saying that on no planet is Jones in the discussion is a bit childish, tbh.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,109 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    Can the posts about the lions be moved to the new thread so we can respond?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭johnh6767


    JGP is a dead cert it’s crazy to suggest otherwise, he’s close to pinnacle and is starting every test game



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,053 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Having a high penalty count is a symptom of another problem.

    Teams give away penalties when they are losing collisions, or are not resourcing rucks, or not supporting linebreaks, or the scrum or lineout or maul are not functioning well.

    Saying 'Ireland didn't play well because we had a high penalty count' is like saying 'Ireland lost because we scored fewer points than the opposition'

    Teams have high penalty counts because they're not playing well

    What has changed with Ireland?

    Well, very little,

    And that's the problem.

    Other teams have worked out our weaknesses and our strengths, so they are neutralising the tactics that we used to gain attacking platforms from.

    Our core players are older than they were last year and the year before, they have a lot more mileage, slower, take longer to get back off the ground, less dynamic attacking threat, also they have been videotaped to death so that they have lost the element of surprise. Teams know what James Lowe will do if he gets the ball so they can make sure they don't leave him the space along the sideline to kick long and deep

    Teams also know who the starting 15 will be for Ireland will be, because unless there are injuries or suspensions, it's extremely predictable the vast majority of the time.

    The benefit of Farrells system is high levels of cohesion, but the drawback of that is the other teams can easily predict what we're going to do, because we do the same things in every game. And unless our execution is close to flawless, we lose that cohesion benefit, without losing the penalty associated with being predictable.

    Rugby is a systems game, a numbers game, not that much different from Rock Paper Scissors, except some teams have bigger rocks than others, so the paper doesn't always cover them entirely. Our rock is shrinking. Joe McCarthy is not as good as Peak James Ryan. Ryan Baird is not as good as peak Peter O Mahony, and Tadhg Beirne at 6 is not as good as either Peter O Mahoney or Tadhg Beirne at 4 or 5.

    Ban billionaires



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,561 ✭✭✭✭phog


    There's more than a grain of truth in this, fair play to Gerry to speak out about it.



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