opposition TD's inc independants - waste of a vote?

Xterminator · 22-11-2024 02:06PM #1

I had a good chat with a local independant. i agree with 90% plus of his 'message' .

But as he will probabaly never be in a position to advance any of the policies, is it a better tactic to vote for a candidate who has a better chance of being in governement, who may not be as good a fit?

Some parties seem happy to sit on the opposition benches and object to everything, but advance little or nothing.

One example is my local independant says he wants fully funded education right up to third level. EG free at point of use. What chance has an independant (if he gets elected) or even opposition got of making something like this happen? they dont do the budget, or decide what we will pay teachers, and how many teachers.

L1011 · 22-11-2024 02:19PM

Independents can get stuff in exchange for supporting tight votes / governments with small majorities; but as a general rule they get less done and less of what they claim they can get done than even a backbencher in an opposition party will. No party machinery, influence, contacts etc.

When they do get influence, it isn't going to be policy* - it'll be pork. Independent TDs have been bought with infrastructure and with state board roles in the recent past; and the latter isn't legally possible now.

*Once, this wasn't the case. Mildred Fox was bought with the promise of a referendum! It didn't pass, though.

Most parties are seriously interested in going in to Government and will agree to do so if they right options are available. Some have intractable demands that would prevent them going in unless they themselves have a majority; which they can't - PBP being the main one here.

I don't, generally, vote for Independents as I see them as useless - chance of electing one that is sane and yet also willing to do a deal with a tight Govenrment majority is so low. I do, however, vote for (current) opposition parties and fully hope that one of them replaces a Government TD or potential TD (my area is getting an extra seat) next weekend.

zell12 · 22-11-2024 02:26PM

Catherine Connolly is Independent, possibly the best TD in the country, and voted by her TD peers as leas ceann comhairle in the Dáil. She regularly raises ordinary bread and butter issues like health, housing, crime, transport - with zero party constraints to muzzle her.

Another effective Independent is Verona Murphy.

Bottom line, vote for who represents your interests. If we only voted for who might get into government, then we would be a two party system ..oh wait.

timmyntc · 22-11-2024 03:22PM

A TD is not just about having a majority to vote through legislation. They also are advocates for policy and for constituents.

If more TDs who want fully free 3rd level education got elected, even if they don't get a majority they serve as a good indicator to the actual government of the public mood.

Government can and do take policy ideas based on the public mood, and the type of TDs that gets elected is as good an indicator of public mood and priorities as any.

Cluedo Monopoly · 22-11-2024 03:30PM

Independents pooled together to create a new party (Independent Ireland). We need more of this. They have 3 TDs and will get more next week. They could well go into coalition.

L1011 · 22-11-2024 03:33PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122870460#Comment_122870460

You need a whip to go in to coalition. Once you've a whip, you lose the basics of being Independent, and voters do not treat you well for it - see the Independent Alliance.

Clo-Clo · 22-11-2024 03:48PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122870198#Comment_122870198

Catherine Connolly is not effective

She does the odd speech, stick up a YouTube but has achieved nothing from her politcial career apart from the odd shower.

No Independent will ever achieve anything.

As discussed here the best they can do is sell their own vote for someone elses ideas

They are a waste of space and should be left in the County Council. They can do YouTube videos in the County Council as well

L1011 · 22-11-2024 04:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122870198#Comment_122870198

Raising issues doesn't mean anything gets done. Being Leas-Ceann Comhairle means you get even less time to be effective too; only people who can coast home ever really go for it.

Verona might be the type to sell her vote to a Government, but it hasn't been required. Yet.

lalababa · 22-11-2024 04:19PM

INds get virtually nothing for their areas in the last two dails. Why would they. They have no leverage. The two healy raes being an example. Micheal going to the dublin passport office with ten applications and everybody saying he'd do anything for you..reality is less Gardai n ambulance s in kerry.

Cluedo Monopoly · 22-11-2024 04:19PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122870477#Comment_122870477

The current TDs in II are very safe I would imagine. I heard they would introduce the whip for some items (Budgets) but maybe not conscientious social issues (e.g. Youth In Asia). Coalitions always find a way.

L1011 · 22-11-2024 04:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122870634#Comment_122870634

Safe for this election; booted out next time out for the new fresh Independent promising everything but unable to deliver a thing.

I'd expect assisted dying to be a free vote anyway.

blanch152 · 22-11-2024 04:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122870198#Comment_122870198

There isn't a single improvement in this country that you can attribute to either Catherine Connolly or Veronica Murphy. Great speakers, great at voicing complaints, but zero differences made.

blanch152 · 22-11-2024 04:23PM

If you want bang for your buck, vote for a small party that shares your interests and hope they get into government.

They won't get everything implemented, but the likes of the Greens, Labour, Social Democrats etc. that are willing to go into government can achieve things way beyond their size.

The larger parties tend to promise everything to everybody, so you are never sure what are their priorities.

Loafing Oaf · 22-11-2024 06:08PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058381727/opposition-tds-inc-independants-waste-of-a-vote

If you really like the Indo's proposals give him your first preference and lower preferences to parties you deem more realistic/pragmatic/whatever…

Downlinz · 22-11-2024 11:34PM

Don't presume who'll be in government or opposition before the votes have been cast. If you don't vote for who you believe in then you're doing yourself and the country a disservice.

If that fellow you think is the best candidate doesn't receive a good share of votes then he'll give up and you'll be left with worse candidates election after election.

At the end of the day governments these days are highly fractured with slim majorities that'll erode over time and rely on support for key parliament votes from independents or smaller parties so you will be represented.

StormForce13 · 23-11-2024 03:10PM

I genuinely believed that when free second and third level education was belatedly introduced in Ireland, we'd get an educated, sophisticated electorate. But, very depressingly, the "vote for your local gombeen and ignore national issues" are in full cry on this thread.

It's looking good for the likes of Shaggy Wallace, Matty McGobdaw, Michael Lowry and the Healy-Rae triplets.

And now it's time for the rugby.

lion_bar · 25-11-2024 04:45PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122870198#Comment_122870198

Total ineffective, can't get anything done as an independent about as useful as offering "thoughts and prayers" to Ukraine.

Some odd friends.

zell12 · 25-11-2024 04:48PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122874479#Comment_122874479

Well no, humans are rational, act in their own self-interest, and vote therefore for similar folk. We have a ridiculously fair voting system, ergo the Dáil accurately represents our desired representatives.

whisky_galore · 25-11-2024 05:08PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122870633#Comment_122870633

Just glorified go-fors. Perhaps that's all people in their constituency want, they'll never think of more ambulances or guards but they'll want the planning for the one off house smoothed over.

Manach · 25-11-2024 08:05PM

Having done administrative law and so from that framing, one could address the OP's concern is that political parties are bound to adhere to the least common policy demoninator, as imposed by the party whip. Hence, it is unlikely that any measure of personal conscience is exhibited that deviates from the offical line. While such an independence of thought is not guaranteed in an independent canditate there is more measure of such reflecting their core political values (good or bad).

purplepanda · 01-12-2024 12:47PM

It's obviously not worth checking now until all the results come in, but I do remember looking at the background of the independent TD's elected in 2020. It appeared that a substantial minority if not more were ex members of major political parties, FG, FF, SF & LP, plus we have the breakaway parties such as Antou.

I'm guessing FF & FG would make serious overtures to those former members who are elected TD's, if they needed their support.

Cluedo Monopoly · 02-12-2024 12:31PM

It looks like Independents will hold the balance of power. Some big favours incoming.

L1011 · 02-12-2024 12:42PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122908873#Comment_122908873

Pretty much all the Independents that can be elected are now elected - 15, a drop from 19 last time but II make up the difference

ex-FF or FF gene-pool: Sean Canney (tenously), both Healey Raes, Boxer Moran, Mattie McGrath

ex-FG or FG gene-pool: Michael Lowry, Gillian Toole, Verona Murphy

ex-Labour: Catherine Connolly

ex-PDs: Noel Grealish

ex-SF: Brian Stanley

ex-Green: Paul Gogarty

No known former party alignment: Barry Heneghan, Marian Harkin

Actually an unregistered party: Seamus Healy (Workers & Unemployed Action Group)

Loafing Oaf · 02-12-2024 02:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122913084#Comment_122913084

You're missing Carol Nolan ex-SF but now way over on the opposite political flank, probably closest to Tolle & Murphy of any of the others in being right-wing in a serious ideological way.

Grealish came out of Bobby Molloy's political machine so ultimately FF gene-pool I think it would be fair to say.

LeoD · 02-12-2024 03:38PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122870658#Comment_122870658

And then hammer them at the next election for doing so. That'll teach 'em a lesson!

opposition TD's inc independants - waste of a vote?

Comments