Changing from Zwift

grouchyman · 26-11-2024 09:04PM #1

Hi Folks, Just looking for a bit of advice. I've been a user of Zwift for roughly the last 3 years and now I'm looking at changing. I have a few of goals for 2025 that make me think maybe another training tool might be more useful. These goals are

- A Multi Day cycling event (2 or 3 days at 200kms per day) in July August

- A 300km solo spin in one day

- At the moment, I'm slowing down on the bike, in fact looking over my Strava activities for 2024, I can see that my average pace over the year was down from my 2023 pace. I think this is becaue I've lost leg strength. The big downside of this is that I'm now struggling to stay the pace with the club spins. Although once I'm at a comfortable pace I can keep going for six hours or so. (Seven Hours if you include coffee and cake 😁) So my other main goal for next year is to try and get back up to group pace.

If I was to prioritise these now, the Multiday event would be first, followed by the club spins and finally the 300km solo spin. Though I could accomplish thre 300km spin as part of my training for the multiday event.

What I think I need is some kind of a training plan and schedule. I've tried using the ones on Zwift but I find it hard to transfer them to the road. Using the smart trainer brings you so far, but you can't beat being out on the road.

I was looking at going with TrainingPeaks, especially now since they took over Indie Velo, but from looking into TrainingPeaks, it seems that on top of the TrainingPeaks subscription you have to pay an additional fee for the plans. Are there any plans on TrainingPeaks that I could use that come with the standard TrainingPeaks Subscriptions?

The other thing I'm considering is a year's subscription to 80/20 Endurance Gold Annual Subscription Package. From what I can see this includes access to all their place.

I'd appreciate any advice anyone might be able to give me around

training for my 2025 goals and

ditching Zwift for TrainingPeaks or

using 80/20 Endurance plans for preparing for next year.

Cheers

nilhg · 26-11-2024 11:59PM

While you've given us quite a lot of detail in your OP I have a few questions that might make it easier to advise you,

How much time can you spare per week to be on the bike/training between now and the time of your goal in July/Aug?

Can you gradually increase that time allocation as the days grow longer and you get closer to your goal?

Will you be training with a power meter outside on the road or using heart rate? Either is fine but some platforms work best if you have power data

How consistent is your availability each week? In other words do you know your work schedule weeks in advance (think someone like a teacher) and don't have small kids that need attention or are you someone who's work is seasonal and unpredictable (think me as a farmer)?

grouchyman · 27-11-2024 09:31AM

hi Nilhg.

I should have said that I'm retired in my OP, so the amount of time available to train isn't really an issue, except possibly for the bog which tends to be the priority in May & June. This can take 2 - 3 weeks over the course of the two months depending on weather. At the moment I'm doing roughly two sessions mid-week (60-90 mins) mainly on Zwift and the Sunday spin which is about 5 hrs incl coffee stops

I will be able to increase my training time as the days grow longer. However for family reasons Sat & Sun for back to back long days probably wouldn't suit. For back to back long days it would have to be either Sunday/Monday or say Wed/Thursday (this would probably be the most practical). It's usually weekends when our family comes to visit so I wouldn't like to be gone on the bike for most of the time they're around.

I have power meter pedals on the bike and a heart rate monitor.

Thanks Nilhg.

nilhg · 27-11-2024 09:50AM

One last question for you that I forgot last night then I'll come back to you later with a few ideas, at what part of your club spins do you start to feel under pressure? And since you have both a PM and HR do you find at that stage that you can't hit the power level you could earlier in the day or that you can hit the power but that your HR is very high compared to earlier in the spin?

grouchyman · 27-11-2024 10:06AM

Hi Nilhg. It's kinda hard to say, It could be anywhere really. Hills and wind seem to be the real killers (aren't they always). The HR seems to be ok and doesn't go too high and if it does it settles back quick enough once I ease up. What I find (I think) is that I just don't seem to be able to turn the pedals fast enough to generate the power needed to keep my place in the group. It's like the strength isn't there, so while the heart and breathing is ok the legs are letting me down. Not very scientific I'm afraid.

On the trainer I'd average between 85-95 rpms doing a workout but on the road this would drop to 70-75 most of the time.

Thanks Nilhg

nilhg · 27-11-2024 06:50PM

Ok, a few thoughts for the OP, firstly I'm not a coach, my only qualification for giving any advice here is that I've done several of the type of events the OP is interested in.

Looking at the aims grouchyman has for next year I would say that doing 2x200km one day after another is pretty much equivalent to his planned 300km spin, if you're going to finish a 200km ride fresh enough to do another one the next day, then with careful pacing you'll manage 300km in one day.

Looking at the club spins, it seems to me that the general pace on the day is catching you out and you're getting tired even though you have a big aerobic base that lets you ride for 6/7 hours, the pace of the long spins must be significantly slower than the group spins?

Before I ever took up cycling i was chatting to a lad I knew who ran marathons, I was asking him about his training plan and he told me it was very simple, one long slow run, one short hard run and one short slow (recovery) run each week, the pace and distance of those changed as he got fitter during the season but that was his plan and it worked for him. A training plan for the bike can be as simple as that but it has to be specific to your goals, someone going racing would be training differently than you looking to do those ultra distance events but most of the training advice I see nowadays recommends splitting your sessions every week (not hours) 80%/20% between endurance and hard, the difference between racers and yourself would be in how you construct that hard session. I would suggest that hour to hour and a half should be intervals that are close to or a bit higher than the levels of your group spins while the rest of your training would be at endurance pace or the pace you'd expect to be doing your long events at. The problem with that approach is if you train during the week for the group spins you probably shouldn't go on it that week.

Before we talk about apps and training plans it might be a good idea for you to upload some data, ideally this years and last years to something like intervals.icu and see what you can see for yourself from the data, it's free and the metrics are comprehensive. You might get and idea why you're finding it harder to keep with the group rides.

grouchyman · 27-11-2024 09:11PM

Hi Nilhg.

Thanks a mil for your thoughts above & I fully appreciate the point you make about not being a coach.

I was, still am as a matter of fact, a big fan of your training logs in 2012/2013. Used to look forward to reading them on a Sunday night. As someone who was starting out on my cycling hobby at the time I got a lot of encouragement from them. I never posted that and I probably should have

At the moment I would say I would be around 1.5 - 2 kph an hour off the pace. Which translates to a good bit.

The approach you suggest two hard intervals and the long spin at the weekends match what I was reading myself of an approach to training - the way I read was 1 sweet-spot, one anerobic and a long spin. Your suggestion of the intervals being at a pace a bit above the club spins is a good one.

The point you make about not going on the club spins the weeks I'm training make sense. I'm reluctant to give up the club spin, but at the same time I know I'm probably holding them back.

Again, your advice about uploading all my spins to intervals.icu and using their metrics to analyse the data to try and figure it out is a good one. I'll do that over the next few days and post what I find here later, once I manage to make sense of it.

Cheers & thanks again.

nilhg · 28-11-2024 06:45PM

2012/2013 seems a long time ago now, I'd nearly forgotten about that now, thanks for the kind words..

Intervals.icu is a great tool especially the fitness and power tabs, if you set up two seasons for 2023 and 2024 you should see a comparison of their estimation of your fitness levels for both seasons, it should hopefully show if there's a reason you were finding the group spins harder this year but maybe it's down to that group being a bit stronger too?

While you're checking that out never forget the old adage that "winter miles make summer smiles" and I've always felt once you have a reasonable base that doing something like the Festive 500 gives your fitness a great boost right through the spring, no plan that you subscribe to will factor something like that in but at the same time they are well worth doing, the same would apply to a week away early in the year somewhere warm.

Ceepo · 03-12-2024 01:06PM

Just to add to the advice already posted.

As you have said you're retired, we all know that with age comes a decline in muscle mass. I would advise you to incorporate some strength training into your weekly schedule as well, now this doesn't necessarily mean in the gym, but can be body weight exercises.

On you current training of 3 days per week, 1 sweet spot and 1 anaerobic and one long spin. On the face of it it isn't a bad idea, however if as you say you're struggling on the long club spin, objectively the vast majority of your cycling time is hard, and will have accumulate fatigue over a period of time. Even the 80/20 rule should be further broken down to 80 aerobic/15 threshold/5 anaerobic. The vast majority of cyclists or runners for that matter don't really need to do anaerobic sessions. Unless they're racing.

My advice to you, would be to cut out the anaerobic one and replace it with 2 easy spins of no more than 75% ftp. These don't need to be long in duration 60/90 minutes. This will help build by your aerobic capacity, which will serve you better in the long term. You can always re adjust and re evaluate after a 6/8 week period.

Zwift is a great motivational tool to help you train particularly in the winter months, but a lot of people fall into the trap of getting on and racing/going to hard all of the time.

Hopefully it's some food for though for you.

Macy0161 · 04-12-2024 02:53PM

I'm a long time user of TrainerRoad. Haven't used too much else, but has adaptive training, AI FTP (which seems to give me appropriate training numbers), outdoor workouts, ability to export to Zwift coming soon*. Very user friendly/ not mentally taxing for me to use. However, expensive enough for new subscribers.

"Join" is also another option that seems quite good. But maybe I'm buying the adverts on LanternRouge too much!? FasCat another option - I haven't used but listen to the podcast often enough.

I think Zwift opening up their API is effectively them getting out of the serious training game, in terms of their own cookie cutter plans anyway

*Not sure I'll bother yet, kinda used to the app on my phone, and moving wallpaper of races/ cx on the TV.

this.lad · 06-12-2024 12:15AM

I've been using training peaks virtual for the last few weeks. It's free and will continue to be if you're a TP subscriber AFAIK.

I like it. Definitely drafting, grade changes etc feel more natural. It's not as developed as Zwift but I prefer it, there's far lass nonsense going on to distract you.

grouchyman · 07-12-2024 10:18AM

Thanks for the responses everybody. Really appreciate it. I took up Nilhg’s suggestion and loaded data into Intervals to have a look at it. Looking at the data, three main pieces of information jumped out at me:-

My fitness level number at the moment is 46 versus the 74 it was this time last year, and there is a good sized gap over the full 11 months comparisons between Jan and the end of Nov.

Next, the average number of calories burned per hour was down. In 2023 I was burning roughly between 550 and 600 calories per hour while this year it rarely topped 500. I use calories as a measure of how much effort I put in on a spin, I know I should probably use kilojules but for some reason I find calories handier to relate to.

In 2022 and 2023 the total kilometres cycled was over 10,000 kms per year. This year I’m looking at around 7,500.

And the reasons I think why my 2024 was poorer than 2023:-

I had a less structured start to the year so I didn’t improve my fitness over the three months Jan – March like I did in 2023.

I just cycled less, and used Zwift instead of getting out on the road more than I did previously – (Nilhg’s “Winter Miles/Summer Smiles” reference is bang on here I think.) Its very rarely I’d do more than 90 minutes on Zwift, whereas if I go out on the road I’d be out for at least 2 – 2.5 hours most times.

When I did do workouts on Zwift there was no purpose to them.

No real focus for the year - In 2023 I did a number of sportives which I prepared for, this year I had just one objective - to complete the Wicklow 200 (which didn’t happen), and once that didn’t happen, I had no real goals to work towards, so when I did try to train, my selection of workouts was haphazard, often starting one and then abandoning it for another one.

Ceepo suggested maybe cutting down on the anerobic workouts as these are mostly aimed at racers and as my three goals for next year – the Multi day event, the 300km cycle and regaining cycling fitness for group spins are primarily endurance activities, I think I need a plan that is focussed on long days on the bike. If this approach is the right approach then what I need to find out is what needs to go into a plan that includes all three goals. Time for some research I think.

I came across a number of YouTube videos by two Cycling Coaches - Erik Knudsen and Dylan Johnson which might help me to develop a plan.

I also bought two books - “The Cyclists Training Bible” and “The Time Crunched Cyclist” (not that I’m really time crunched). While the books might be more useful to a Racing cyclist I feel there is plenty in theses that I can learn from.

On the Strength and core fitness side of things I had a good look at the Cycling Ireland Training Hub videos and I think these would be a good place to start.

A good portion of any training I do will be on the trainer and I do like the virtual world element when doing a workout it keeps me focussed on the numbers more that the bike computer does and as I’ve kinda fallen out of love with Zwift I might give TrainingPeaks and Indie Velo a try. The idea would be to do endurance rides (weather permitting) out on the roads with Interval workouts on the trainer.

Anyway, the job between now and the start of the new year will be to try and devise a plan that works for me. Again, thanks for all the helpful suggestions.

Changing from Zwift

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