Russia-Ukraine War (continuing)

You talk about this strategic mistake as if NATO made it. The people of Ukraine rose up against a president who betrayed the very Pro EU mandate that got him elected in the first place.

It's not like Russia's moves regarding this whole thing worked out too well for themselves. I'd argue worse and they're in trouble if they can't end the war. Kermit what happened you. You've gone full vatnik.

Back to the war I see Russian is now using some captured Leopard's and Bradleys against Ukraine. This is probably the reason they'll never get the very latest American tech. They don't want the Russians being able to copy their designs.

America have a long history of manipulation, murder, coups, wars everything. I think on Wikipedia they count 250 plus since WW2.

But of course this time it's all different. It was the free will of the people and an expression of freedom and democracy fostered by unselfish NGOs and US politicians and ever since the US is just there to help the poor heroes.

now do Russia

Both sides this for us

"Crap I've been called out, back to the comfort of Russian gains."

No, we don't "know" that. Again, a prejudicial framing of a strawman position. I reject your premise and you haven't remotely justified it.

Obvious to all reading that you haven't engaged at all with the questions put to you about alternatives and what the US should have done and what that would have meant for Ukraine. So why not? The Kremlin propaganda pumped out over social media that has deceived you doesn't cover that?

It is obvious you have no credible or coherent response to those questions and alternatives that stands up to any scrutiny.

Failure in alternative history looks like Russians doing to Finland and/or Baltics and/or Poland what they are doing now in Ukraine but with Ukrainian resources on their side

Instead we have:

• a country that will retake what it lost the moment Putin dies civil war for power starts
• A country that has rediscovered its identity, culture where even the “Russian speakers” absolutely hate Russia for what they done
• A country that joins a band of countries from Norway down to Turkey who see Russia as the primary threat to their existence and will do everything to contain Russia in perpetuity as they all **** hate them
• A country that is now using NATO gear and is the larger and more experienced military with innovative tech than NATO itself
• A country that is on verge of developing its own nuclear weapons
• Russia that is isolated with every tightening sanctions that are suffocating their economy
• Russia whose “allies” are busy benefiting themself from Russian downfall
• Russia that lost its standing on world stage where even the daily nuclear sabre rattling is met with “meh, they at it again”

Land can and will be regained, but now you have a people and culture whose will to retake it will extend long past Putin’s lifetime

Aside; feel free to backup your posts with more edits you make to Wikipedia 😂

The US should have not have interfered or publicly backed those protests. That is my opinion on it. I think that was a strategic error that assumed Russian impotency to respond. It infuriated the Russians that this was happening on their doorstep and Putin responded immediately. He took Crimea with scarcely a shot being fired and then backed the separatists in the Donbas.

You can litigate the who, why, what over and over again.

The situation today stems directly from 2014 and things would have been done very differently if where we are now had been foreseen.

The whole sorry mess began with Putin being allowed to get away with the destruction of Chechnya, then Georgia, next Crimea….so the full scale invasion of Ukraine. To blame the US or others is pure Russian Bullcrap. It was all on Putins shoulders, and no one eles and it was only when he met his match in Ukraine did the "US, UK EU NATO interference become the Russian chant, Putin couldn't bear the thought of the 2nd best military in the world be beaten by lowly Ukraine. So the story morphed into the "real" enemy, the EU, US UK etc. And to this very day in Russia, the rising bank rates, the inflation, the failure of the city infrastructure, falling bridges the dams breaking, failure of city heating systems (thats a big one..and I lived there) all is the fault of the West, US, UK and NATO. See how Putin has brainwashed Russians.

https://x.com/i/status/1860714588800471475

Basically they (Ukrainians) could have just done what Putin demanded of them to avoid being attacked/destroyed. That is what you are reduced to now.

Though maybe you feel twinges of attraction to "Putinism" (i.e. corruption, oligarchy, managed democracy run out of Moscow in Ukraine's case) as a superior system of government, and are waiting eagerly for our own Irish version to dawn, so don't see what the problem was or why Ukraine didn't just accept this gift horse from Russia (vs some US/Western siren song)? 🤷‍♂️

Part of the problem here is people want to make emotional arguments over and over again and ignore strategic realities.

"Putin is currupt", "Putin is a tyrant", "Russia is an authoritarian hellhole"....

All these things are true, everyone knows this.

But the fact is Russia exists and has it's own interests and this needs to be accounted for in dealings with it's neighbours. I don't like it but I accept it because it's the reality.

This notion that countries like Ukraine or Georgia etc don't have to give due regard to Russia in their own national interests simply due to geography is just delusional fantasy. Of course they do.

Of course it does but that is the challenge for these countries, that's where they need to work their statecraft to overcome the tyranny of their geography.

In my opinion in the long run the solution will be from reform in Russia itself.

So controlling their leader and blocking them from pursuing EU membership or from fostering a closer relationship was due consideration? What your arguing for is that Russia should remain a dominant force on Ukraine and they should not have any form of self determination....