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Energy infrastructure

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,890 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Mentioned in previous posts, but Moneypoint has just been given planning approval for conversion to HFO until 2029.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2024/1003/1473435-moneypoint-gets-approval-for-conversion-to-hfo-generator/

    IrishEnergyBot had a nice chart recently showing the contribution of coal to generation:

    According to this article, Greenlink interconnector is due to start commerical operation on Dec 16th

    https://montelnews.com/news/1f06b8df-1952-49fa-bfc2-def62d2d164b/500-mw-britain-ireland-interconnector-set-for-december-launch



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,626 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    FYI, the generators at Moneypoint have always been capable of burning HFO, it has always been their secondary fuel.

    What is happening here is that they are building two large HFO tanks to store a significant amount of HFO reserve on site and then swap regular operations from the coal to the HFO.

    This is why they aren't swapping to gas. Swapping to gas would have required all new gas generators and pipeline to connect to the gas grid. Reusing the existing generators is cheaper.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,060 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Not just cheaper , probably a lot more energy efficient, to continue to have a large power station with a fuel store , and a commonly shippable fuel , as a reserve station ,

    Than to build 2 or 3 new Combined cycle gas turbines , or 4 or 5 new open cycle gas turbines ,that we don't have any fuel storage for , and hopefully would be needed very infrequently..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,396 ✭✭✭gjim


    Ok maybe not as crazy as it first sounded to me. Will it be relatively clean? Tarbert burnt oil and was both filthy and expensive. Forgetting about CO2, the emissions from Tarbert were toxic.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,648 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Great news re: Greenlink date. Given how much use we are getting out of the Moyle and EWIC at the minute another 500MW of east-west capacity won't go astray.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,060 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,738 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Good news about Greenlink. Will it get used to the maximum from day 1? ie. it will make commercial sense to import from the UK and reduce our GAS generation by as much as possible?

    image.png

    The UK has a cleaner grid than us so we would have to pay less in Carbon Taxes?

    https://grid.iamkate.com/

    image.png

    Although the UK is exporting to us, they are also importing from other EU countries.

    So I'm assuming they can buy from them for less than they can sell to us?

    Is this basic arbitrage or is there something more complicated also involved with wholesale markets/grid capacity/carbon credits that an ordinary joe like me doesn't understand?

    When the French interconnector is up and running, will we be able to get our first 700MW cheaper than currently? ie does French nuclear usually cost less than Norwegian hydro via UK?

    Do the UK ever have their own excess (Wind?) to export ?

    So many questions…



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,626 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    On average the wholesale cost of electricity is cheaper in the UK then Ireland, so yes, it will likely be well used.

    Of course the wholesale cost changes throughout the day, so there will be periods of both importing and exporting.

    Basically the interconnectors allow us to plug into larger grids and thus take advantage of cheaper prices and economy of scale.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 233 ✭✭millb


    Good points and questions. The UK has much more renewables (eg offshore wind) and will export to us far more than we will export to UK. Ditto from France as long as their NP plants stay up. Check out UK plans for feeding excess Scottish wind down the North Sea, to SE England. UK is now building very many Data Centres so big future demand is being met from their booming assets. I guess Greenlink will export at times to southern UK - eg when we have wind and the North Sea is calm.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,890 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Eirgrid site has a recent presentation from SONI/SEMO/Eirgrid on the operation of the existing interconnectors and operational issues e.g. increased dispatch down

    image.png image.png image.png

    Presentation also includes info from Greenlink, network infrastructure build etc

    https://cms.eirgrid.ie/sites/default/files/publications/SOEF-Advisory-Council-Meeting-9-Presentation-24-September-2024.pdf



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,738 ✭✭✭✭josip


    This week's question.

    According to Irish Energy Bot, on Sunday at 01:00, Renewables and Pumped Storage made up 90% of generation at 01:00.

    Renewable generation and pumped storage equalled 66% of yesterday's electricity demand, with a peak of 90% at 01:00. Fossil fuel generation (mostly gas) equalled 35% of demand. 6% of generation was exported, 5% of demand was met by imports.

    According to the Eirgrid presentation in the previous post, the grid at the moment can operate up to 75% SNSP.

    Turlough Hill is 292MW and at 01:00, system demand is 3.8GW, so it would have been providing 7.5%. There's a 7.5% gap; what am I missing?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 360 ✭✭CoffeeImpala


    The 908MW of export.

    Taking the numbers given on smartgriddashboard 01:00 on the 20th had 3,228MW of wind, 3,690MW of demand, and 908MW of export.

    Using the formula in post 5591 gives an SNSP of just over 70%.

    I find it easier to think of a synchronous generation requirement rather than a asynchronous limit. Once 25% (actually about 22% with the compensator running) of demand is coming from synchronous sources the grid is fine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,726 ✭✭✭celtic_oz


    I see grid level battery storage is increasing dramatically across the world as expected as solar has rocketed.

    US power grid added battery equivalent of 20 nuclear reactors in past four years

    Interesting podcast on the Netherlands where they have 70Gw of battery storage projects on the waiting list to connect in :



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,002 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    "The equivalent of 20 nuclear reactors" - Green journalism - we are saved.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,726 ✭✭✭celtic_oz




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,172 ✭✭✭Ben D Bus


    20 nuclear reactors measured in GW or TWh? There's quite a difference!

    70GW is not a measure of storage. Can the batteries deliver 70GW for 15 minutes or 72 hours? Important information!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,726 ✭✭✭celtic_oz


    Was wondering this myself .. the average nuclear plant in the US generates 1Gw of instantaneous power and therefore 24Gwh over one day ( both of these could be expressed in Tw and Twh - makes no difference except where the decimal point goes)

    The article I quoted gives only the instantaneous power for the battery storage I think and you are correct this is not the full story .. this article here talks about U.S. installing 3 GW / 10.5 GWh of energy storage in Q2. If the ratio is the same then the total batteries are giving

    21Gw = 21 nuclear power stations

    and over one day

    73Gwh =~ 3 nuclear power stations

    Not as flattering but they are not designed to be used like that and my math may be wrong here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,396 ✭✭✭gjim


    Most utility battery installations are 4 hour - so 4GWh energy storage per GW of output power. Although 2 hour installations are not uncommon either. This is by design to efficiently support daily demand following - 4 hours of output during daily peak while charging/passive during the rest of the cycle.

    Basically the intraday issue with solar is now a solved issue because of how cheap batteries have become - combined pv and batteries are cheaper and offer huge operational flexibility compared to generation technology based on running a massive stream engine. They are trivial to operate (requiring almost no staff to run and requiring no fuel logistics) extremely responsive to demand (seconds compared to hours or days for coal/nuclear) and are economic at a wide range of scales from 10s of MW to GW while coal and nuclear are not even at the races unless you build massive plants around the 1.5GW size ballpark. And even at that scale can’t compete economically with modern technology.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,738 ✭✭✭✭josip


    It looks like from 8am to 4pm yesterday, commercial solar outperformed wind. If you include domestic solar, perhaps it outperformed it over the 24 hours?

    https://twitter.com/IrishEnergyBot/status/1851527725783097421/photo/1

    GbHynIfXcAARdso.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,002 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    I'm not sure if that delightfully subtle humour was deliberate or unintentional, either way, it's appreciated.

    It's great that batteries are now so cheap we can afford to colour in all that grey area.

    Two days of sunless, windless grey where I am, and counting.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,738 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Should have read Angela's Ashes before you moved back cnocbui.

    Carnsore Point is where you need to be 🙂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,060 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Is that carnsore is the place to be -because it's of the wind farm? It's a great sunny spot for solar ? Or it was nearly a nuclear power station site ?

    Or just because..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,738 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Location with the most sunshine in Ireland and good 20/38kV infrastructure so we should have more than a single 8MW solar farm in that area. Lots of lovely beaches where you can walk and wonder what might have been if the NPP had been built. And for an added bonus, it's the nearest point in Ireland to Australia. But mainly because of the sunshine, more sunshine than anywhere else in the country and 25% more than many places where solar farms are being built.

    Mean-1981-2010-Annual-Sunshine-hours.png
    Post edited by josip on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,060 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Yeah , I,'ve wondered at some of the sites either being developed on or chosen to be developed,

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,738 ✭✭✭✭josip


    One reason is probably because it's either all good land or bird wetlands around there. From the satellite view, you can see how many fields are tilled. It's a tougher business proposition then to persuade a landowner to lease that productive land for a solar farm.

    image.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,002 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Was yesterday a new record for wind generation - 50 MW from 4,400 MW of capacity? Day 4 of the dunkelflaut continues.

    No wind day 3 1-11-24.jpg


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 94,818 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    So coal and gas provided two thirds of our electricity.

    Not so long ago getting a third of our energy from other sources would have been super impressive. And we still don't have much in the way of offshore wind or solar or grid storage yet.

    https://www.eirgrid.ie/news/renewables-provided-third-electricity-september

    image.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,890 ✭✭✭Apogee


    It didn't get much traction in media, but North Irish Sea Array Windfarm (NISA - second of the four ORESS1 projects) submitted their planning application in June. ABP site seem to suggest the decision will be made by end of year, which seems optimistic based on their previous performance.

    https://northirishseaarraysid.ie/

    https://www.pleanala.ie/en-ie/case/319866

    Conditions for ORESS2 have been finalised, with auction likely next year:

    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2024/1031/1478480-terms-approved-for-second-state-offshore-wind-auction/

    Industry not happy with this new approach, with 500MW Clogherhead project being 'paused'

    https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/1bn-esb-offshore-wind-project-being-paused-due-to-uncertainty-over-government-policy/a1392862440.html

    BBC write up on how Brexit, among other issues, is hampering the LirIC NI-GB interconnector

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdd450pl9llo

    Eirgrid is now showing the Greenlink IC - due to come on stream in December

    image.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,002 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    We are well into the fifth day of a dunkelflaute. Wind is only supplying 5.6% of current demand. Offshore wind might improve matters slightly, but there is no prospect whatsoever of batteries mattering or making a meaningful difference to a 5 days straight, near windless period. Grid batteries do hours, not days, and despite the lttle bleats of joy about falling battery prices every time someone somewhere adds a few GWh worth of storage, batteries will never be cheap enough to supply the majority of our grid demand for multiple days.

    Every time I see mention of interconnectors these days it's only in the context of an import mechanism - gone is the notion of them being primarily for exporting shamrock-oil - excess wind.

    Wind is Ireland's equivalent of Saudi oil reserves - what a laugh.

    An energy policy built on the presumption of non-self-sufficiency is stupid, but unsurprising when the likes of ER are elevated above their level of incompetency.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,371 ✭✭✭MightyMunster


    Wouldn't it be great if we only had to burn gas 5 days out of 365



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