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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Indeed, and in all the road races I competed in or followed over the years, the fastest time was always set by a man, hence the reason men would have no objection if in fact there was only one open list of prizes, but the same wouldn't be true for women.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭Enduro


    There are two issues here. Trans involved in women's sport and Russian propaganda.

    What are you talking about? Do you realise that absolutely nobody is saying that Khelif is trans? You're constructing a strawperson there that nobody else has made any reference to.

    And I don't know how many times I have to repeat that I have exactly the same position as you as regards the IBA and Russian propaganda. And I have said nothing to you about whether Khelif is male or female, apart from the fact that she met the IOC's (totally inadequate) eligibility criteria to compete in the female category at the Olympics. I'm not speculating about Khelif's sex. Feel free to quote me if you find otherwise.

    However, you claimed that it was not possible to determine if someone was male or female from a DNA test. Hence why I'm asking whether you accept that there are tests available that will screen and determine a person's sex. This is a generic question which has absolutely nothing to do with Khelif, the IBA, or Russian propaganda.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭Enduro


    Your perception as irony of me giving an example of an individual who proferred bullshìt hypotheses and then tried to make the evidence fit the hypothesis, escapes me, to be honest.

    The levels of irony spinning around irony here could keep the whole solar system rotating infinitely. I think that has to be the funniest thing I've ever read in this thread 😂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,123 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Do you have a literacy problem?

    That depends - some people would classify dyslexia as a literacy problem, but it’s not a problem for me, and the question definitely isn’t relevant here where you’ve not actually engaged with the post, but rather glossed over it to make some point about male sports jocks, when I was referring to men. You’re on about something entirely different and unrelated in an attempt to prove from your perspective anyway, that I don’t have a clue, while attempting to portray yourself as an authority on, well, pretty much everything as much as I can decipher in between your spittle.

    I still hold out hope that you might offer something relevant to the discussion at some stage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,123 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Some men don’t even want to compete alongside anyone, or nobody, because they want to be a somebody:

    https://extra.ie/2022/11/12/news/anti-corruption-garda-who-used-luas-to-finish-dublin-marathon-gets-lifetime-ban


    That he is a member of the Anti-corruption squad gave me a chuckle 😂



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭Enduro


    I still hold out hope that you might offer something relevant to the discussion at some stage.

    Whatever about your literacy levels, you've definitely mastered irony. I'll give you that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,123 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Fantastic! The story just above is well up there though I’d hope, in the hope that underneath all that male jock bravado exterior, there’s a sense of humour 😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭Enduro


    You know this isn't as irrelevant as it first might seem. It illustrates nicely that there are people who will try to cheat at sports, even when there is absolutely nothing at stake beyond their own personal results. He wasn't cheating to try to win the race. He wasn't cheating to try to get prize money. None of that is necessary for a person to cheat. There are websites specifically devoted to highlighting these unfathomably low-level cheaters.

    Equally, some of the cases of people who have been caught taking (potentially medically dangerous) PEDs even in Ireland are ridiculously low level. About as far from elite sports as you could get. It doesn't make any logical sense, but it still happens. At any level, if it's possible to cheat, then somebody will.

    And that is why rules around eligibility for sports categories need to be written as precisely and as tightly as possible. If you leave any gap to allow a male athlete to compete in the female category then somebody will exploit that gap to cheat, no matter how well-meaning the intention of the gap may have been (inclusion, or whatever).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Back on the late 70's, on a club ride, I heard some of the vets discussing lads taking various pills, just for the bragging rights of being first in a random sprint to some arbitrary point, not even an official race. Pathetic, but definitely a thing



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,123 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    And that is why rules around eligibility for sports categories need to be written as precisely and as tightly as possible. If you leave any gap to allow a male athlete to compete in the female category then somebody will exploit that gap to cheat, no matter how well-meaning the intention of the gap may have been (inclusion, or whatever).


    I apologise in advance for the link to Gript (seems to be the only media outlet that gave a shìt), but while I do take your point as it relates to cheating in sports, and while I do agree that the rules around eligibility in sports need to be written as precisely and tightly as possible… it’s the purpose for which they need to be written as precisely and tightly as possible which I don’t agree with, as it’s intentionally misleading in order to be exclusionary. That’s why I always recommend rules are written in plain language to ensure that they are easily understood, to avoid any misunderstandings and the ensuing disappointment, confusion and disputes which are reasonably foreseeable by an organisation.

    Take for example this sad case, whom you probably don’t remember as I’m sure you’re aware of many, many more, equally insignificant examples:

    https://gript.ie/male-trinity-student-comes-2nd-in-womens-race/


    Out of nothing he managed to make something which in his own mind he imagined was noteworthy, and for that brief moment in time, he imagined himself as a somebody. I do get it, it doesn’t make him any less pitiful.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 498 ✭✭Mr Bumble


    Another blizzard of words, none of which you can stand over and all of which are your opinion, one which echoes the IBA and is therefore suspect.

    Culture wars, propaganda and social media bullshittery.

    You have heroically managed to project a veritable encyclopedia of opinion dripping with certainty onto an issue notorious for it's murkiness.

    You're clearly clairvoyant and I'll leave you at it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 498 ✭✭Mr Bumble




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 498 ✭✭Mr Bumble


    Me: "There are two issues here. Trans involved in women's sport and Russian propaganda."

    Enduro: "What are you talking about?"

    Meanwhile OP

    Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

    And 3 people thanked you.

    Exactly my point actually. None of this is about the OP or related topics which you seem wrapped up in and I'm not. I think this is about Russians being Russian and opinion being broadcast as fact.

    I'll sit back and wait for the court case. If it happens and is not settled, all will be revealed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,905 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    what has Russian propaganda got to do with trans people in women's sport?

    you have been defending the IBA position on this since the start 

    or, to put it another way, what do you believe the IBA position to be?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Another ad in a similar vein - this one was banned from tiktok as it apparently constituted hate speech…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,198 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    An all male semi final in a women’s sport. A few years ago this would have been surrealist comedy. Now women risk being punished for pointing it out.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭aero2k


    You must be imagining it volchitsa, haven't the TRA's told us that this sort of thing would never happen and it was all just about inclusivity and expression of identity?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,592 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Is that pool?

    Pretty sure women and men compete against each other anyway.

    Same as darts.

    I suppose they are technically "sports".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,198 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    If there's no need for a female category, then let's get rid of it. That at least would be intellectually honest.

    What's problematic here is the existence of a female category which is not restricted to females.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,592 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    For the likes of Darts and pool, probably yeah.

    If you want to support women's sports though best go to an event and pay to watch it, instead of white knighting on the internet.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,388 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    I think in Volchitsa's situation it's White Dameing, not White Knighting.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,905 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    The 2 transgender players are into the semi-final and have to play each other next. What an absolute embarrassment our sport has become

    They should have been seeded, to meet in the final



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭Enduro


    That's quite frankly male bovine manure. There are many ways to effectively support womens' sport without paying to spectate. Adding to TV viewing figures, helping in organisation, helping encourage female participation in sports at all age levels. All those are either equally or much more helpful, I would say.

    There are many female sports where you cannot pay to spectate. Are females in those sports worthy of other forms of support in your world, or should they be marginalised/shunned/cancelled?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,198 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    LOL I can't play in all the sports that exist! Nor even go to see them all. TBH I've never been a big fan of watching sports, though I do still practice some, but not as many nor as intensively as when I was younger. I still think access to sports is really important for the next generation though, including my own children, and now even grandchildren - well ok only one so far.

    But worth fighting for IMO, and discussion about the issues on internet is as useful as anything else IMO. Raises awareness.

    It's just sad that you think that the only reason for men to feel the same way is as a ruse to get more sex.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,198 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Meh, at this rate it won't be long before both semi finals in some sports become all-male affairs.

    In fact we'd probably have had that in the women's boxing at the Olympics if it weren't for the weight categories - and the irony of that is pretty awesome.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,198 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    I think for women it's called being interested in women's issues.

    The idea that men can only be concerned about such things when they have an ulterior agenda, namely sex, is truly tragic - but a lot of men seem to believe it, so who am I to argue with them about their own motives?

    Still. The equivalent for women would presumably be pretending to be a massive Chelsea or Arsenal fan, wouldn't it? Rather than a woman being interested in, you know, female sports, and enabling girls and women to practice them safely - which should be fairly unsurprising really.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,783 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    Access to sports? Has there been talk that there may not be access to sports?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,198 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Although this is a women's issue, it doesn't just involve women. The denial of biology, obfuscation, gaslighting, and general disregard for the truth is bad for society in general. I want to live in a fair society (I realise perfectly fair is impossible, but at least one that's the least unfair practicable) and one that discriminates against 51% of its members is definitely not fair.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,592 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    There are many ways to effectively support womens' sport without paying to spectate

    Calm down. Where did I say otherwise?



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