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Garden Room - 25sqm allowed, internal or external, why is it so unclear!

  • 08-10-2024 01:42PM
    #1
    glalonhk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5 ✭


    I recently bought garden cabin and installed it myself over matter of months. At time of purchasing, I checked with a few cabin retailers and was informed the 25sqm of "exempt development" applied to the internal floor space. Mine was 18sqm so happy days. Stupidly I didn't feel need to phone the council given the feedback from retailers.

    Last month I had a visit from Fingal planning, due to my horrible neighbour who complained about it. FCC informed me it's the external footprint which includes my overhang which I have a small deck under, this totals to 23.5sqm. I now need to remove a small shed as total exceeds 25sqm.

    I proceeded to phone up half a dozen stores out of interest, majority (5 out of 6) told me it's internal measurements.

    What are others experience with the council? I've read on here planning measuring "skirting to skirting" even. Seems grossly inconsistent from feedback I've read on here.

    Combination of retailers miscommunicating and not giving a crap, bad neighbours and aggressive council is just too much!



Comments

  • #2
    geotrig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,981 ✭✭✭geotrig


    i think you complicated it with the overhanging roof and decking area, as this is a covered area so gets counted as well ,just my 2 cents.I've been under the impression internal only unless there is overhanging roofs.



  • #3
    Penn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 36,324 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    When doing his own house on Room To Improve, Dermot Bannon had two small sheds and the roof continued over the two of them. Even though the sheds totalled under 25m2, the roof between them meant the area under it was essentially a defined space, so it counted as floor area. He ended up having to apply for retention permission for it.

    So yeah, the overhanging roof and decking counts as floor area because you've erected a structure which, although it doesn't have walls all around it, it's a defined covered space.

    ("Defined space" isn't an actual term, it's just what comes into my head when trying to describe it)

    Post edited by Penn on


  • #4
    drag0n79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 197 ✭✭drag0n79


    You don't have to remove it yet - just apply for retention and go through the usual planning permission channels.



  • #5
    muffler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 47,150 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058373311/garden-room-25sqm-allowed-internal-or-external-why-is-it-so-unclear

    The 25 m2 or any floor area for that matter is normally calculated internally. However if you have a floor that extends out to decking (fancy word for external floor) and is roofed then that will also be included in the floor area calculations. Because the roof is in situ it is quite easy to sheet around this decked area thus increasing the structure's stated size. Apart from that you should have been aware that the floor area of the other shed would be a factor in the exemptions.



  • #6
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,121 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122697084#Comment_122697084

    That was always my interpretation too. Overhang counts.
    same for canopy over front door. Less than 2Sq. M.



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  • #7
    glalonhk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5 ✭glalonhk


    Yeah possibly, I guess the general point I was making was that there is ambiguity.

    FCC said under no circumstance are internal measurements ever used (overhang or not) when calculating 25sqm. i.e. it is *always* the external footprint of the structure that should be taken.

    This flies in the face of retailers, forums etc who often claim it's internal floor space that is used (again, excluding external deck).

    Anyway, now we know I guess.



  • #8
    goldenhoarde
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 876 ✭✭✭goldenhoarde


    I'd say the retailers are just giving you the measurements of what they are selling you. They don't have any knowledge of what you have at home and as such only give the measurements of what you buy.

    Up to you then to add it all up and doesn't help to have bad neighbours



  • #9
    muffler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 47,150 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122700023#Comment_122700023

    It doesn't surprise me what any Council will say. The Dept. Environment which is the boss of the Councils so to speak has previously confirmed that floor area is measured from the inner side of the external walls. Other Councils would agree.



  • #10
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 43,763 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058373311/garden-room-25sqm-allowed-internal-or-external-why-is-it-so-unclear

    here an An Bord Pleana determination that you might find useful:

    https://www.pleanala.ie/anbordpleanala/media/abp/cases/reports/307/r307272.pdf

    Having regard to the aforementioned previous An Bord Pleanála referral ABP Ref. 09.RL.2885, this referral related to a structure in the rear garden of a dwelling and, like the development under the subject referral, was assessed having regard (inter alia) to the Conditions and Limitations under Class 3 of Part 1 of Schedule 2 of the Planning and Development Regulations. I note that in this previous referral, the Inspector’s Report in assessing the structure against Condition No. 2 of Class 3 calculated the total area based on its external measurements (27.15 sq.m.) and stated that “the terminology in Condition and Limitation No 2 indicates ‘area’ as opposed to ‘internal floor area’ and I consider that in order that the correct interpretation of the condition and limitation is to apply it to the external measurements, that is the area of the footprint of the structure”. I note however, that the Board in its Order of ABP Ref. 09.RL.2885 concluded (inter alia) that “the gross floor area internally, which is the internal floor area as defined in Article 3 of the Planning and Development Regulations 2001 to 2011, of the said structure does not exceed 25 square metres”. 8.3.10.

    Having regard to the Boards Order in this precedent referral and the definition of “gross floor space” as defined in Article 3 of the Regulations, I consider it appropriate that the gross floor area of the proposed structure should be assessed. Given that the internal floor area of the proposed structure will be 24.23 sq.m. and the Referrer’s confirmation that the proposed structure will be the only such structure within the curtilage of the house, I am satisfied that the proposal complies with Condition No. 2.

    its internal floor area for the structure, but the area of the awning will also be included.



  • #11
    rayjdav
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,119 ✭✭✭rayjdav


    image.png

    Extract from the P&D Regs 2001 Part 1-Art.3(3) which defines the interpretation of gross floor space.

    No matter what someone from the council says, the gross floor area is the internal floor area required on all forms.

    The canopy would normally be considered a structure and not exempted development so I assume as above that is what was calculated…



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  • #12
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,499 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    If you add the garden room internal floor area + deck area + existing shed internal floor area, does that bring you under 25sqm?

    If not then the internal vs external thing is moot.



  • #13
    Mellor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,588 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122700023#Comment_122700023

    There’s no ambiguity. It sounds like you misinterpreted requirements.

    Building area in internal. A cover decked still counts as area of development.

    If your 18sqm internally, how big is the deck? Around 3x2, 4x1.5? That brings you up to 24sqm. If so you’re definitely over, nothing to do with external footprint of the walls or eaves.

    Unless the deck and existing shed are >7sqm.



  • #14
    muffler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 47,150 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122700023#Comment_122700023

    If you read the ABP referral linked to above by sydthebeat you will see that FCC back in 2020 said that floor area is measured internally. Now the same planning authority are telling you in 2024 that it's always the external footprint that is used in calculating floor area. Make of that what you will.



  • #15
    T-Maxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭T-Maxx


    Aggressive council - no just a local authority doing its job

    Miscommunicating retailers - telling you what you want to hear in order to make a sale

    Bad neighbours - for playing by the rules and reporting unauthorised development?



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