Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed

1288289291293294469

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭tibruit




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,237 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Because there is nothing to 'come clean' about?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Suppose Bailey hiked totally unnoticed and full of blood on his clothes home and with all sorts of luck wasn't seen by anybody? He would have gone to the studio first. He would have showered there, changed clothes, and disposed of all the bloody clothes. It's possible he could have burnt the clothes behind the studio. It is unclear when the fire really was, maybe there was one in early December and he lit a 2nd one later on which was unnoticed? Later on he would have gone to Jule's and her daughters pretending nothing happened.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 45,526 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    But if you're going to invent a story to blame someone without any motive or evidence then surely everyone in a five mile radius should have also have their story concocted?

    Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/ .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,906 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Maybe he walked over there naked, did the deed, went home, showered and dressed.

    Or returned via Kealfada and washed in the river there.

    Surprising the Keystone cops didn't come up with this.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 272 ✭✭PolicemanFox


    I agree.

    Now, why do you think you have better insight than Jules Thomas?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 272 ✭✭PolicemanFox


    In fact, Detective Inspector Liam Hogan did suggest precisely this scenario to the DPP.

    Quote

    "If he had killed Sophie Toscan du Plantier while wearing this coat his arms and elbows would have been protected from the briars by the coat and other clothes. (Although the more recent report from D/Inspector Hogan speculates that he might have been naked when he killed her, no evidence to support this view is submitted (Report of March 2001, p.60))."

    DPP's report section 10 "Scratches"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,772 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    Do you think that suggestion from hogan about the killer being naked was done, simply to “get past the DPP” sorta play, and to get going with the prosecution?

    It really shows that they were trying any tactic they could as opposed to letting the evidence do the hard lifting in convincing the DPP.

    I can’t imagine the embarrassment had this case actually gone to trial. It’s no wonder Bailey was often heard saying that he really wanted a trial - he knew there wasn’t a jury in the land that would convict him .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,772 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    Jaypers - unrelated case - 2020- but like, what’s being alleged here is not at all a good reflection of the Gardai in the 2020s when it comes to the investigation of deaths.

    Let’s hope family get some sort of answers soon.

    https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/extensive-evidence-of-blood-discovered-near-where-leitrim-farmer-liam-farrell-was-found-dead-in-2020-after-family-hire-own-forensic-team/a439910797.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,000 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    The naked theory is fun to imagine but really off the wall.

    Planned murder? The devious assassin proceeds to the house in deepest darkness…

    "A cold coming we had of it,

    Just the worst time of the year For a journey, and such a long journey:

    The ways deep and the weather sharp, The very dead of winter" (T S Eliot)

    but undeterred by the pitch darkness and the cold conditions he strips to the buff, lures the lady out of her house, does the evil deed, then washes the blood off his wicked skin (how?) and dresses again in his clean unsullied clothes and shoes, and drives away. James Bond has nothing on this lad!

    Spur-of-the-moment murder:

    Face to face with a lady who is either refusing his sexual advances, or creating a scene about PLEASE KEEP THESE GATES CLOSED AND ALSO THAT IS MY LAND!

    "Just a minute madam while I get me togs off.brrr….ah, now to throw her into a hedge and then finish killing her" then back into my kit and off I run.

    Nope, just no, not believable.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,906 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    The Gardaí and press had done such a good job on Bailey it would have been hard to find an impartial jury by the time it got to trial. The evidence was very flimsy but it would have been risky.

    (BTW my naked post was a joke, in case anyone thinks..)

    Post edited by chooseusername on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,772 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    I take your point alright - the late 90s even up to the mid 2000s wouldn’t have been great for Bailey from a public opinion perspective .



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 45,526 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    But, there are still loads who assume his guilt - a bit of "where there's smoke, there must be fire" and this is as a direct result of actions by the Gardai. I would reckon that everyone in the country was aware of who Bailey was and what he was accused of. Any jury selection would have had many like @tibruit* who were convinced of his guilt and would not be swayed by any additional facts. It is almost like "the gardai and the media would not lie to the public" (conveniently ignoring the cases such as those in Raphoe, Cahirciveen, etc.)

    * no offence intended @tibruit

    Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/ .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,000 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    It really does look as if the Guards in the 1990's had an upside-down method of investigation: instead of finding facts, looking at them, and following where they lead towards who they point to - (good detective work)

    instead they made up their minds at the beginning that Someone "must have done it!" and then look for whatever they can find to confirm this idea.

    Frank Mc Brearty, October 1996

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_McBrearty_Snr

    Joanne Hayes 1984. Not quite the same but still a sinister case of harassment.

    Murder of Una LYnskey 1971

    Death of suspect Matthews Shercock 1983

    https://magill.ie/archive/trial-sergent-diviney

    It was a certain culture in a very macho business: but it's not professional, not ethical, and doesn't result in justice being done. very much the contrary.

    Ian Bailey? - we cannot know for sure who killed Sophie Toscan du Plantier so brutally, that winter night. But making someone live with harassment and suspicion, but no trial, was inexcusable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    This approach by the Guards clearly failed in the murder case of Sophie Toscan du Plantier.

    The methods the Guards applied are a bit more like down the line of one would have come to expect in Nazi Germany.

    Putting somebody under pressure, and trying to get a confession, then put it in front of a judge in hopes to get a conviction, even if key evidence connecting killer to victim and murder site is missing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,772 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    Thankfully it’s not something that happens every day - there have been a couple of high profile murder conviction appeals in recent years - Joe O Reilly and Graham Dwyer for example - don’t think there’s any doubt in most people’s minds that those two deserve their time


    On a related note :this is a 2023 article so may have been posted here before but an interesting observation from a former Detective Inspector relating to Rachel’s killing-I wonder who could have “hated” Sophie so much?

    “I’ve been to thousands of burglaries. I know what a crime scene is like. I knew when I visited the scene myself that someone hated her because she was so badly beaten,” he explained.

    “It was vicious. Not only had they beaten her, but they had come back and beaten her again. We could tell by the blood splattering on the wall that there was blood on top of blood, which is a sign that she was hit and the blood began to dry, and then there was blood on top of that.”

    https://m.sundayworld.com/crime/irish-crime/detective-who-put-joe-oreilly-behind-bars-speaks-about-vicious-rachel-callaly-murder/a1409052368.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭tibruit


    It is likely that after the first assault Bailey apologized and promised he`d never do it again. Jules obviously believed him and let it slide. He assaulted her again and would have eventually said sorry and she believed him and let that one slide. There was another assault in 1993 after which she kicked him out of her house. As it happens, this was also the year that a bathtub bandit was breaking into Sophie`s house to avail of her bathroom facilities. Anyway, no doubt he expressed his remorse and she believed him and allowed him back. There was another assault in 1996 about six months before Sophie was murdered. He obviously convinced her once more and she believed him again. Then in 2000 he assaulted her again, hightailed it to Cork airport but got arrested before he got on a plane, did some jail time and she clearly believed him when he said he`d never do it again and allowed him back into her home. The difference between me and Jules is that I wouldn`t have believed him after the first assault.

    Jules`s opinion that he didn`t do it is based firmly on belief. It is a fundamental fact that she has no clue where Bailey was for approximately seven to nine hours on the night/morning that Sophie was murdered. As far as I can see she was also oblivious to the Christmas bonfire and refused to accept it ever happened in spite of a number of witnesses seeing it. In her mind it cannot have happened because in her own words Bailey was "a hoarder who never got rid of anything". She ignores the obvious evidence that he lit the bonfire because her understanding is that it wouldn`t have been in his nature so therefore it couldn`t have happened. She uses the same flawed logic to deny he murdered Sophie, even though it was very much in his nature to be violent.

    He had the time(7 to 9 hours) to commit the murder and the opportunity to hide and later dispose of the incriminating evidence (the studio). He told her he wanted to go Alf Lyons`s place before they went to bed (it`s in her statement), he got up about an hour later (also in her statement) and disappeared for up to nine hours. We know that he exited the house in darkness ( it`s in his statement). The violent woman beater who expressed a desire at around 1 AM to go up Sophie`s laneway, got out of his bed and walked out into the darkness. But Jules and a collection of ye here actually believe that in an incredible coincidental turn of events, that Bailey didn`t actually go where he said he wanted to go, but that a different violent headcase made his way up that isolated lane in the middle of nowhere that night and murdered Sophie.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Yes, but this still doesn't proof anything that Bailey actually did it and neither is there a motive. There is only the theoretics that he could have done it as he clearly had the time to do so.

    One oddity is that as far as I know most lease agreements in Ireland forbid the tenant to light a fire. I've had this often, in apartments where there was a fire place. But in this case, Jules allowed him to light a fire behind the studio? Or she didn't even know about it?

    Again, it's not proof of anything, but it's another possible indication.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,000 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    This is all valid reasoning, except for one thing; you appear to believe Bailey's statement when it points to guilt, but not when it points to innocence!

    Either he's believable, or he's not. If you think he was lying at any point, then anything else he said may also be untrue, unless confirmed by an external fact or witness. And NONE of it has been confirmed. Verification fail.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,392 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    "As far as I can see she was also oblivious to the Christmas bonfire and refused to accept it ever happened in spite of a number of witnesses seeing it."

    @tibruit I don't believe that any witness said they saw a burning fire at the studio, they didn't "see" any flames or smoke. I have mentioned this a few times now and you are either ignoring it, or being purposefully disingenuous. Considering this is one of your fundamental arguments here I question why do you continue to do so. On face of it these witness statements are farcical imo, but of course you are entitled to believe them, but don't infer, or exaggerate them. It actually quite ironic that you call out and criticise Jules (who many view as an innocent victim in all this, even many who believe Bailey did it) when you are the one bending the truth.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭tibruit


    "My name is Louise Kennedy. I live in Liscaha. I went for a walk on the 26th of December, St. Stephen`s Day and I saw a fire burning behind the studio."

    Quoted from Episode 2 of "Sophie A Murder In West Cork"

    I don`t think Jules had any hand, act or part in the murder, nor in any clean up afterwards. I would very much agree that she was a victim in it all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,772 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    “He told her he wanted to go Alf Lyons`s place before they went to bed”


    “Mr Bailey had not said that and a note by gardaí recording she had said Mr Bailey had said he was going over there later was “pure invention”.

    “It was not possible to see Mr Lyons’ house from Hunt’s Hill; there were no lights; and it was dark, she said yesterday. Gardaí had referred during interviews with her to there being a party in Mr Lyons’ house that night but there was no party, she added.”

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20300124.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭tibruit


    And yet she signed that statement with her legal representation present.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,137 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    No she didn't. We can have no certainty that what she signed was what Guards went with.

    "Ms Thomas disagreed and said there were additions, omissions, and inventions. "

    Remember the Garda in this case have tampered with evidence.

    And one of the items of evidence "lost" includes original witness statement of Jules.

    Given that you cannot see the house from the location specified, that is proof that it is a fabrication by the Guards.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭tibruit


    You contradicted yourself in your first line there. You cannot definitively say she didn`t sign her statement on the one hand and then say we can`t be certain that what she signed was what the Gardaí went with on the other. In any event, the original may be lost, but it was photographed.

    Also West Cork Podcast confirmed that you can see Alfie`s house from Hunt`s Hill. Not that it particularly matters that much because she confirmed to RTE in 2017 that they went up there and Bailey had his premonition, something which she denied happened in the court case against the state a few years earlier.

    But sure work away there on the conspiracy theory.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 45,526 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    My understanding is that she claims what is currently in her statement is not what she signed.

    Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/ .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,392 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    Do you have anything from anywhere close to the the time of the murder itself rather than 22 years later in a paid program. Why did Louise lie in her original statement neglecting to say she saw a fire? How could Jules ignore something if it didn’t exist for 25 years? Your relying on people who are changing statements, that’s hypocritical, but you seem to be fine with others chopping and changing information, and bending the truth as long as it fits your narrative



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,906 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Her solicitor was with her for less than 30mins around 5pm.

    The statement was written by Fitzgerald and 'signed' by Jules at midnight just before she had to be released, having been questioned by several different Garda for 14 hours at that stage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,392 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    For a conspiracy theory to exist, there would have to be an original theory that is fact based and officially supported by all parties. The judicial system does not have such a theory, therefore you are as much of a conspiracy theorist as anyone else on here

    It is a perjorative ad hominem attack designed to paint you as an authority on the subject, and betrays that you are likely not acting in good faith.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,137 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Multiple people, including posters on this thread, have gone to the site, and stated you would not be able to see the light of the house from the location. So something doesn't add up.

    So by that standard - you can't definitively say with certainty that she did sign them. So how about applying the same standard to your own posts?
    The statement is disputed.

    As for your deflection about a "conspiracy theory", evidence in the case was tampered with. You try not to engage with this point and shout 'conspiracy theory' instead.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



Advertisement
Advertisement