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M21 - Limerick to Rathkeale/Foynes [Adare bypass under construction; remainder pending]

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Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Correct. They've been deemed to dangerous and 2+2 will be used instead.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 891 ✭✭✭pajoguy


    Thank god for that. Id imagine there isnt much difference in the cross section width between a 2+1 and 2+2.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    For a long time a 2+2 was planned all the way from Rathkeale to Castleisland but then it was downgraded to bypasses of the major towns along the route.

    Probably gonna be good enough especially with improvements to the N69 (Foynes, Listowel).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,391 ✭✭✭yannakis


    Dronehawk keeping us up to date:



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,650 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/work-on-new-bypass-to-start-at-adare-end-of-route-ahead-of-ryder-cup-date/a484494598.html

    He confirmed that tenders for part of the route that will include a motorway stretch over the River Maigue, have gone out from their office.

    Mr Carey said: "We would hope that contracts can be finalised by November or sometime in December. All going to plan, it would be our expectation that work on site can get under day in January or February.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 93 ✭✭Pale Red


    If "advance works" are to start shortly, what work is going on between Lantern Lodge and golf club entrance? There were a few earthmoving machines working where a part of the wall has been removed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke


    Is there any chance of the road builders being scared away from taking on this job, because of the time frame demanded?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 891 ✭✭✭pajoguy


    Has anybody seen the tender docs? Is it the yellow pack version thats gone out for tender or does it include the grade seperated junctions and tie in to the existing dual carriageway?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Two full junctions will be built at Adare and Croagh. The link to Attyflin isn't mentioned.

    There would be no way to build a 'yellow pack' road anyway. The bridge over the Maigue will be 200m long and that is one of 4 river bridges. There are two rail crossings. And there are 7 over/underbridges, along with a number of accommodation underpasses.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Advance works started ages ago. Look at DroneHwaks video earlier in the thread.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,650 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    I wonder is there any chance the link to Attyflin could be progressed as a separate tender, and leave the big contract focus on trying to get the trickier section around Adare done.

    The Attyflin link is fairly simple and the only structure on it is the L1424 crossing. The difference in performance between Adare bypass with no Attyflin link and Adare bypass connected to the M20 really doesn't get enough discussion imo.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Yea, agreed. At first we thought the Ryder Cup was going to benefit this project by being an impetus for getting it done quickly, but unfortunately it looks like the decision to build only the minimum required for Ryder and the rest at a later date has decreased the usefulness overall as now you will have a disconnected bypass, which will become useful only when the full scheme is done.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,465 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    The full scheme is part-funded by the EU: it must be built and it must be built soon.

    The reason for this partial build is to guarantee that in-progress construction of the whole scheme doesn't exacerbate the traffic problems that will attend the Ryder Cup. Personally, I think this is the wrong way to do things, because it ends up costing more, but golf is involved, so as usual all kinds of cash can be found for golf...

    But this partial build doesn't satisfy the requirement of connecting Foynes to the national road network via a high quality road type, and so it doesn't meet the conditions under which Ireland was given the EU funding. If we do not build the rest, we will have to hand back that cash (metaphorically.. I know the payments don't actually work like that), but worse, our non-performance on this project will affect us in future EU funding rounds.

    This is actually a good outcome in that the worst part of the existing road will be addressed earlier than expected, and the rest is still coming.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,376 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Does anyone have any proof that the EU is providing funding for this road? I don't think it is the case



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,345 ✭✭✭MayoSalmon


    We are now a net contributor to the EU so in the grand scheme of things Im not sure much of that matters anymore.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,465 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    It matters if we're expecting to get some of that money back to pay for building this road.

    This whole project was designed in order to co-fund N21 works by the requirements of the TEN-T port access programme. None of the current work is currently funded under that EU programme, but that doesn't mean that a funding application won't be made for the scheme in future.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,925 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    Dronehawk strikes again. Route very clearly visible now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 891 ✭✭✭pajoguy


    image.png

    Screenshot from Dronehawks video of the railway progress. Filmed from foynes to Limerick at top right you can see the access onto the N21.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 971 ✭✭✭lordleitrim


    20240816_150217.jpg

    Just crawling into Adare as per usual from the Limerick city side and notice all this clearance. What does this pertain to if the construction tender has yet to be awarded? I



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    There were separate contracts awarded awarded for things site site clearance, fencing, archeology etc. on the whole route.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9 cameltoe86


    Am I right in saying its just the Limerick to Rathkeale section that has to be done in time for the Ryder cup in 2027? 6 months before it or something like that? And the road to Foynes completion date is 2029? Driving through Foynes I can see that work has already started over there. I would have thought they would have left it and focused on the Adare-Rathkeale section first if there was such a tight deadline, no?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Actual construction of the road hasn't actually started yet. What you're seeing are preparatory works. The section from the Adare junction to the Cappagh junction is due to go to construction next year and be open in time for the Ryder Cup. There is no actual confirmed date for the rest of the project to go to construction.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 496 ✭✭Limerick74


    article behind paywall

    Up to €50m worth of minor road upgrades across the country have been postponed as the funding has been diverted to cover overruns on big projects.

    Among the large road developments going over budget is the €500m Adare Bypass, being built in time for the ­ Ryder Cup at billionaire JP McManus’s Adare Manor estate in 2027. Transport Minister Eamon Ryan will not say how big an overspend there is on these roads so far, but an
    industry group says nearly €50m has been diverted from smaller projects.

    Ahead of a general election, several smaller road projects will be significantly delayed. The minister has admitted that three big projects, in particular, have run over budget and require additional funding – taken from the road-maintenance budget. A list of minor road projects that are now deferred has been identified by an industry body, the Irish
    Asphalt Producers Association (IAPA).
    The group said the condition of our roads will deteriorate countrywide as a result of the delays. Mr Ryan’s office confirmed the budget overrun on the big road projects in a letter to the lobby group.

    The minister’s officials said a number of new road projects “are facing funding pressures in 2024 due to reasons including an increased pace of delivery and land acquisition costs, as well as inflation and
    increased cost of materials, which are higher than when the original estimates were calculated”. These new roads are the N5 Ballaghaderreen to Scramoge road in Co Roscommon, which is under
    construction, as well as the M28 Cork to Ringaskiddy and the Limerick to Foynes upgrade, including the Adare Bypass, which are approaching construction.
    Mr Ryan’s officials were asked how much the projects have run over budget but did not respond.
    The industry group estimated that two-thirds of the funding for national roads maintenance is now moved. It said €38m worth of projects have not been tendered as work has been deferred, while
    another €10m of projects had contracts awarded that were subsequently withdrawn.

    The representative body for road contractors said the state agency, Transport Infrastructure Ireland,
    instructed all councils to withhold planned road improvement tenders unless they receive explicit approval. “Such significant cuts are likely to have a detrimental impact on the quality and safety of our national
    road network,” the group said in a letter to TDs. “Reduced investment in critical infrastructure not only jeopardises road safety but also threatens long-term economic growth across the regions.”
    Mr Ryan’s officials said a number of projects at an earlier stage of development are also affected.
    “These important projects are in line with the commitment of Government to invest in new roads infrastructure to ensure that all parts of Ireland are connected to each other. They will also assist in removing traffic from our towns and villages, creating more liveable communities,” his office said.

    To continue with the big projects, the Government postponed some works on the existing network until 2025 “or as soon as possible thereafter”.
    “In addition, some Greenways funding will be used to advance active travel infrastructure on the national road network, which would otherwise be funded from the roads budget. This will allow funding to be directed to new roads projects. It is important to point out that safety improvement schemes will not be affected by these measures,” the department said.
    The Department of Transport said there has been “no reduction to the overall capital funding available for national roads in 2024”. It added that it is committed to the continued maintenance and renewal of the existing road network.
    However, IAPA executive director ­ Edmund Hegarty said the stance being taken by the Department of Transport is “deeply concerning”. “Their confirmation that the national roads maintenance programme can be so readily tapped to offset budget deficits in other capital programmes is highly unsatisfactory,” he said.
    “This short-termism will come at a price – we will all pay as the condition of our national roads deteriorate countrywide as a result.
    “Aside from the impact on road safety, seeing two-thirds of this year’s budget disappear from the pot overnight will only serve to impose much greater cost on the taxpayer down the line in getting our
    national roads back to an acceptable and safe standard.”
    The new Limerick to Foynes road will include 18km of motorway between Rathkeale and Patrickswell
    and 16km of dual carriageway from Foynes to Rathkeale. The Government has ordered that the first
    phase of the €500m project should start with the Adare Bypass, given the village will host the Ryder
    Cup in 2027.

    Post edited by Limerick74 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,184 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    No surprise. The sooner the Greens are out, the better.

    Under Ryan aside from a couple of cycle lanes there has been literally nothing done. There has also been blatant obstruction of the roads programme in the state.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,465 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    The very first line in the article:

    “… minor road upgrades across the country have been postponed as the funding has been diverted to cover overruns on big projects.”

    Cost overruns have to be paid from somewhere. Either pause the overrunning projects until the money is available (and thus spend more on them in the long run), or postpone another project and use its budget to cover the shortfall - i.e., exactly what has happened.

    Ironically, this is a situation where Eamon Ryan’s department is diverting money from the maintenance fund to keep new-build projects going, and still he’s being accused of stopping road building. I suppose once you decide someone’s evil, you don’t have to worry about evidence any more.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    There shouldn't be a need to divert money. We're going to run a surplus of €10bn for the second year in a row. And you have the €14bn Apple money on top of that. €50m is a pittance in the grand scheme of things.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,443 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    There is a money available. If they are having cost overrruns then they should address why that is happening, delaying other types of work which may not have a cost overrrun is not the proper way forward. Delaying maintenance can be false economy and some of that smaller work may use local contractors that actually are available, and if they are available then they should be put to work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,465 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    ”There is money”, yes, but that money is not allocated to the department’s budget. The government can’t just stack all the cash on a table and let anyone who needs it come along at take it. It’s bad enough that Health is constantly coming back with a shortfall every year, but if every department did it, there’d be no point in having a budget at all.

    (That “Apple Money” is already starting to look like a kid’s Communion Money - people are proposing that it can be used to purchase loads of things simultaneously, without ever running out. That’s a bit populist, to be honest: the best thing to do with it would be not to spend it at all, but rather put it in the sovereign wealth fund and tap a 5% return to give us €700 million a year for infrastructure projects instead).

    @Charles Babbage I agree that cutting maintenance is bad, but it’s also the least bad thing that can be done (it’s not only maintenance, though - some very small projects have been deferred). The investigation can be carried out regardless of whether the project is running or not, and every project is audited anyway. The problem is about how to continue, and there are only two options open for the Department in this position: suspend the project that’s overrunning, or find the money elsewhere. If you stop a project that’s already underway, it will cost you stop it, then cost you again to restart it, so doing that would be considered a “nuclear option”, to be used only when a project is spiralling out of control. None of the overrunning projects are in this situation, given that the total overrun across all major works is only €50 million, but the fact that the overruns are spread across several large projects, means that stopping just one of them won’t fix the issue anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,376 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The tenders for Limerick to Foynes haven't even come back yet, there can't be an overrun for 2024. IIRC, something like €20m was allocated for 2024. M28 won't have any spend on the main project this year, enabling works are ongoing and substantial funding was allocated for that this year.

    I don't know what the actual situation is but that article can't be accurate.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Postponing minor works and road resurfacing until 2025 doesn't sound like the worst thing that's happened this year.



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