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Leinster House Bicycle Shed

191012141519

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,591 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    I can't see how that is relevant, unless the price included extensive ground works and a specific Irish Granite Base and your Dads house is a protected building?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,300 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    You seem to misunderstand how conversations work. I am not comparing the bike shed with software. You and I still don’t know why it cost so much. During this discussion I gave an example of a real world scenario that I do know details about. Then I asked people to explain who is to blame and how to stop costs going up. In effect it has little to do with the shed itself but about applying the belief people should be fired.

    If you cannot point to who is at fault and who should be fired then you are proving my point. You and I do not know if the design was changed multiple times pushing up the price. I don’t know what went wrong but obviously it did but I have explained how costs can go up in an area I am familiar with



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,619 ✭✭✭fliball123


    I never said anything like that read back what I posted. I simply said that in my experience people will simply not pay a higher cost of a project/build/service once its finished from what was quoted without some kind of explanation/audit or valid reason why the cost is different and that if the cost is too much and the the Project/build/service is completed without communication with the customer/client more times than not in my experience the customer/client wont pay for something that is costing 4 times more. As I say people on here will make up their own mind on how things are you have your experience and I have mine. I have been dealing with SMEs and trust me the room to pay 4 times for the price of a certain service/project is simply not there. Your either working with the MNCs or/and the Public sector.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,015 ✭✭✭Andrea B.


    I seem to "misunderstand how conversations work" ?

    Are you for real?

    That particular conversation, if it was ever had, probably cost €235k (being generous).

    My "conversations" have saved that type of squandering.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,606 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    All of this isn't even a storm in a teacup compared with all the other wastes of taxpayers money FFFG have squandered over the last number of years…

    And the below isn't from RTE news or the Irish Times/Independent.. it's from Waterford Whispers!

    If such a small sum of money, relatively speaking, wasted by the Irish State angers you so, then the following should completely and irrevocably boil your piss:

    €19 million was allocated to Children’s Health Ireland to be used to address scoliosis surgery waiting lists. This money was misappropriated and spent on things other than ending children’s suffering and immense pain.

    This week a whistleblower revealed €1.1bn has been lost in social welfare overpayments in a decade.

    €158m has been spent on the Metrolink project since 2023 despite no actual construction taking place.

    In 2022, the government failed to spend 25% (€1 billion) of its social housing budget in the middle of a housing crisis.

    If Ireland remains on its current trajectory on climate targets it will face fines of at least €8.2bn after 2030.

    In 2022, local councils only bothered to collect €138,335 of the €9.6 million they were owed by land hoarders in vacant site levies, and 13 of 31 local authorities didn’t even issue demands for vacant site levies to be paid.

    BAM, builders of the National Children’s Hospital recently asked for an additional €107mn, bringing the total cost of construction to over €2.3 billion. Once you take a sedative to calm your fury Taoiseach, you might consider confronting whoever was Minister for Health at the time construction began.

    The coalition government punished state broadcaster RTÉ for its mismanagement; concealed payments, €2.2 million on a musical, forcing PAYE employees to be freelance contractors, with €725 million funding.

    In 2002, then Min for Education Michael Woods signed an agreement with 18 Irish religious orders involved in child sex-abuse scandals limiting their compensation liability to victims to only €128 million. This compensation scheme is estimated to have cost the Irish government €1.35 billion. Something to chew over Taoiseach as you consider news of an inquiry identifying 2,400 cases of sexual abuse in 308 schools run by religious orders.



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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 7,177 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sheep Shagger


    Blame the government and TDs all you like when it comes to wastage and lack of accountability but it's the senior civil servants who run this country, and don't have to reapply for their jobs every 4 years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭floorpie


    Yes you could but it's apples and oranges. This is a historical building/campus and this covering looks to be a competent custom solution that looks very well. People who think you could get this done for anywhere near 100k are off their rocker. Also off their rocker are the people suggesting to plonk down a 10k plastic shed in front of such an important building. Whether it's good value for money is a different question, but I've no doubt that the costs are appropriate for what's been built.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭floorpie


    The more interesting story for me here are the politicians throwing their officials under the bus, and a finance minister not seeming to understand the most basic principles of public procurement.

    They should be “ensuring that whenever projects are advanced, that they’re at the lowest cost for the taxpayer”.

    Leinster House’s €336k bike shed is ‘complete waste of public money’, says Finance Minister Jack Chambers | Irish Independent



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,300 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    So you can’t explain how your view should be applied to the scenario I provided and certainly can’t show how your “conversation” abilities would keep the job at initial quote. You are blindly angry about the shed and not understanding what I have said.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 353 ✭✭Exiled1


    There is only one question that needs to be asked in all this farrago.

    Who took the graft? The Fraud Squad should have been all over this since the initial report.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,300 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    So you have no experience working with large organisations and the difficulties in pinpointing waste and costs. You are saying that because you don’t have such experience you don’t understand how costs can increase. An explanation has been provided but you want to say because it can’t happen in your sector it shouldn’t happen elsewhere.
    You seem to think because I do have experience in large organisations my experience is less relevant than yours because you don’t have experience. Very weird logic. There are totally different considerations and costs with large organisations that cause issues.
    Again you never solved the scenario I gave. Who is to blame and how do you stop. Not doing the work is not an option



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,573 ✭✭✭beachhead


    Filibustering the way to go here



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,606 ✭✭✭Tenzor07




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 53,844 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    as president of ireland, he will stamp out government waste?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,606 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    No better man to stamp something out!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,591 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Yip the convicted criminal will sort out of everything.

    You'd imagine he would appreciate a bike shed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,968 ✭✭✭Deebles McBeebles




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,606 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    He'd break a few legs in the Govt. Ms. Pee bles



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,968 ✭✭✭Deebles McBeebles


    How dare you assume my gender. I'm a non-binary entity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,619 ✭✭✭fliball123


    I have had experience working in MNCs as well as of late is mostly SMEs and your experience has not been mine as I say your in an echo chamber now, you know what you know and I know what i know your not going to change my mind. People will judge for themselves and on this topic 330k for a bike shed so you think that is an appropriate amount?

    How you stop it is you have the fraud squad beefed up or an independent third party set up and brought in with their brief being given value for money to the tax payer and looking at all procurement within the public sector going forward with them actually looking during the process not after as well they also need the power to say stop if a breakpoint of cost has been breached such as for example if during the scope of works of creating a bike shed these people are told its costing 330k they will without a shadow of a doubt shout stop and come to the realization that the tax payer is not getting value for money. Who is to blame the civil savants and politicians who they report into



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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 7,177 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sheep Shagger




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,015 ✭✭✭Andrea B.


    A bespoke job with many variables and unknowns can creep.

    Stakeholders are informed and excess costs agreed or not.

    Agreed?

    This is a bike shed.

    A small project with proven history of technologies, materials and outputs used.

    Unless they had delays for finding Lord Lucan or Shergar under the pavement, then we can't see how this "crept".

    And if there was a creep of project for a specific reason, I imagine we would have been told by now.

    Unless they, like me, don't know how to have a conversation.

    Finally, to safeguard materials and procurement costs, they should have hired a Quantity Surveyor.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,685 ✭✭✭Glencarraig


    I wonder how they ever got on with the printer that wouldn't fit in the room it was supposed to go in. Would it fit in the "bike shed" ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,300 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    You are the one in an echo chamber because I am asking about the scenario with known details. You do not know why the shed cost so much or what happened for the costs to go up. I am asking you in my scenario who is to blame and who gets fired? You have never answered this.

    Your call for “fraud squad” is starting off with the assumption that there was fraud. How do you think you know how much it cost to build? Because the information is available and it is being investigated. You don’t seem to be aware there are systems in place to check proper procedures are followed. People do get reprimanded for not following them. It is obvious what happened needs investigation before any claims of fraud are made.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,300 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Maybe they actually built 3 sheds and some people came along and insisted the design was wrong and needed to be changed. Nobody here knows what happened yet and are casting blame all over. So many variables but don’t be so sure that an individual is the cause. Maybe the security reasons are sound and it designed to withstand bombs or had to be reworked because of such dangers.
    i don’t know and you don’t know but it is clear given an example of how prices can rise you couldn’t say who should be held responsible



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,837 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    So in your view, the fraud squad should now expected to look into all procurement spend by government bodies that exceeds €330k?
    So in one swoop you have undermined the procurement staff within those bodies and you've also tied up a garda team from their regular work.

    Similar to Ray Palmer's point, I have worked on projects that were well scoped and managed and yet still met unforseen challenges that added significant costs to the project. Should someone have been sacked for those despite nobody actually having done anything incorrect, misleading or fraudulent? Although I'm in the private sector, should I be fearful that one day I potentially could face fraud charges for working on a project that managed to exceed the budget?

    Also, if the fraud squad (in your view) were involved in investigating public sector contracts, would many private sector companies want to tender for contracts over €330k and if there were less companies prepared to bid for the work (because of the potential having to deal with the fraud squad), surely this would make the market less competitive and drive up the costs of large scale projects?

    Surely, it would be easier for us (and less embarrasing for you) if you admitted that you really haven't a clue what you're on about!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,703 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    Can't believe there's people actually trying to defend the cost.... the price of house to build a bike shed roof for 18 bikes... there is no excuse. And using fancy or exotic materials while the country is in massive debt with all the issues we have... it speaks volumes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭A Shaved Duck?


    Equating this level of gombeenery to a major or large scale project is not comparing apples to apples. At some point the cost has to be explained and if anybody can stand over a bike shed costing 330K plus should have their ducks in a row. Its entirely reasonable that the cost could have exploded for any number of reasons but we will never know who approved this and the connections underneath..thats the thing that galls the majority of people.



  • Posts: 3,330 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    €4,800,000 doesn't sound like value for money for a steel shed mate



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,015 ✭✭✭Andrea B.


    You, are all over the place.

    We were discussing scope and cost creep.

    You were acting as apologist and telling me and others that open-cheques exist for such projects.

    Now, you are not only backpedaling, but cycling erratically all over the place and now saying we don't know the reasons.

    EXACTLY!! That's why most of us are here. We.... don't....know…the... reason!



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