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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,116 ✭✭✭plodder


    If you look at some of the examples on the wiki page, the concept is not that strange and has some purpose. If anything, this is probably the worst example - where something is declared to be true in law, that is quite disconnected from what the average person believes. But, here we are …

    “Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt” - Carl Jung



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,734 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Does every outrageous nonsensical claim need to be disproven now or it's deemed possible? I guess humans could grow wings and fly since no one can prove they can't, but in real life everyone knows that actually that's impossible without needing a paper to refute the claims. Same with humans literally changing sex. Maybe in the future science will find a way but right now, not a chance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    nobody made an appeal to an authority in zoology that humans could grow wings, they made the erroneous claim that the authority figure could prove (counterfactual), or had already proved a negative. No evidence of this proof of negative was supplied. The appeal to authority therefore holds no water. That’s all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,915 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,915 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    I mean your post

    just because the burden isn't on someone to prove something, and they haven't proved it, doesn't mean they CAN'T prove it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Droll. If the claim is made they CAN prove it, then provide the proof. Otherwise it is mere conjecture or counterfactual nonsense. “My science dad could beat your science dad if they wanted to” level rhetoric.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,915 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    I presume it's just so self evidently true that no one thought to prove it, it's just a given.

    I'm sure if you read his work he'll have 'proved' it implicitly though, something along the lines of 'from the moment of conception, you possess every gene you'll ever have' or whatever…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    if you’re sure of that, that he’s proven the negative, provide that evidence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,915 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    are you still hung upon the 'proving a negative' thing?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I’ll take that as a deflection from the point raised here, that invoking Dawkins is proving utterly pointless and furthering the discussion nowhere. Let’s leave it there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,915 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    I'll take that as avoidance of the question

    (just as an example, if you said 'the colour pink is in the rainbow', the burden of proof would be with you, but I could prove the negative by showing pink isn't a pure colour, but a mixture of wavelengths)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I’m not going in circles about this any further: a user made a claim Dawkins can prove the negative. Dawkins hasn’t proven the negative. Nobody can show this proof of a negative. Therefore the claim made of a proven negative is baseless and utterly pointless.

    I hope that answers your question, have a good night QE



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,729 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    Objection your honor, the user did not say 'Dawkins could prove it', he said 'he was sure he could prove it', so the only thing the user would have to prove (if we were in a court of law, and we're not) is that 'he is sure', not 'that Dawkins could prove it'.

    In any case, the other user who brought Dawkins up did not say Dawkins was 'an authority' he said 'he carries a lot of weight'. I agree with this, Dawkins' option on the matter would carry more weight that say the option of a drag queen publican of no academic background like Rory O'Neil, for example.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,390 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Dawkins got his degree in Zoology but he was written some well respected books on evolutionary biology, so many people consider him to be an evolutionary biologist.

    We're dancing on the head of a pin here as you don't need to be a 30 year Professor of Biology to know that you can't change sex. An undergrad or even a Leaving Cert student of biology would know this. A lot of the science in question when it comes to the trans stuff is pretty straight forward. Males have a physical advantage over females and if that advantage isn't removed than they will carry that advantage into sport and so it'll be unfair and not safe for females. The DSD is more complicated though.

    In fairness to O'Neill I don't think he's ever gotten into this topic but I could be wrong.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    as I’ve said already his credentials are not in the topic of this thread he’s made no papers theses or dissertations on the topic especially with regard to sport etc. so I continue to fail to see how this gets us anywhere. That several users seem to want to keep dragging him up without any evidence or proof that carries the conversation forward as some means of confirmation bias is very pointless.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,390 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    You are free to believe whatever you want.

    He's written multiple books on evolutionary biology. If you think this isn't enough to know that males have a physical advantage over females good for you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Go ahead and link to any excerpt from his books you want that touch on the topic relevant to the thread, that you think prove the claim, that you are trying to invoke his name by to push as your agenda.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,390 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    My agenda is basic biology.

    I'd imagine he probably hasn't written in any of his books that males have a physical advantage over females as it's too basic to put in.

    When you're writing a paper there are certain things you don't have to provide references for as they're so basic that they're considered common knowledge. Males having a physical advantage over females is one of them.

    When 2GreyFoxes brought him up they were pointing out that he was aghast that sporting organisations have been duped to believe otherwise.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I'd imagine he probably hasn't written in any of his books that males have a physical advantage over females as it's too basic to put in

    If he hasn’t written anything academically/in his expert capacity about the topic then we seem to agree this tangent about Dawkins is entirely pointless.

    When 2GreyFoxes brought him up they were pointing out that he was aghast that sporting organisations have been duped to believe otherwise.

    which is just an opinion. Therefore clear case of appeal to authority fallacy as I detailed before.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,390 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    It's just so tedious.

    A biologist, who's also a zoologist, talking about biology in a thread which has a strong link to biology isn't pointless.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Richard Dawkins isn’t talking in this thread. And for 3 or 4 days now nobody can link to anything he’s authoritatively said about the topic. “Aghast” isn’t an academic position or a thesis or a proof, it’s an opinion. This is as “tedious” as you make it by dancing on the pin of a needle about the fact that Dawkins being invoked here in this capacity is appeal to authority fallacy. I’ve suggested for several days now that we move on but clearly, folks would rather persist with this fallacious, “tedious” sideshow.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,390 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Dawkins is an expert on biology, he's written books on it. There's no authority fallacy here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Yes, there is clear authority fallacy here, as I plainly outlined in an earlier post:

    You can just admit you don't know what the appeal to authority fallacy is, but that would be hard to do since I so plainly laid it out in that post.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,390 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    I know what it means but it's not relevant as he is an authority on biology.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Being an authority on biology does not make him immune from being wrong, especially of all on his matters of opinion, which is being touted here (that he is "aghast" at the sports topic). To reiterate:

    "It's important to note that this fallacy should not be used to dismiss the claims of experts, or scientific consensus. Appeals to authority are not valid arguments, but nor is it reasonable to disregard the claims of experts who have a demonstrated depth of knowledge unless one has a similar level of understanding and/or access to empirical evidence. However, it is entirely possible that the opinion of a person or institution of authority is wrong; therefore the authority that such a person or institution holds does not have any intrinsic bearing upon whether their claims are true or not."

    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,390 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    I agree 100% that an authority can be wrong.

    Many sporting organisations allow transwomen to compete if they reduce their testosterone to 10 or 5nmol/l. There is no evidence that this removes the physical advantage that males have over females.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    And, you want the sporting organizations to prove the negative?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,390 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Well we're starting to get somewhere if you're happy to accept that testosterone suppression doesn't remove male advantage and so transwomen competing in women's sport isn't fair.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 339 ✭✭2Greyfoxes


    Nah, just a certain user twisting what I said to absurdity, and still unable to refute the point.

    Clever word play may win debates, but it doesn't make it true.

    Understanding and explaining things, is not the same as justifying them, if in doubt… please re-read this statement.



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