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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,628 ✭✭✭Augme


    Again, depends who you ask. The XY chromosome = male brigade are the ones who claim that males can give birth so you'll need to bring it up with them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,094 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Semenya can think what he likes about himself, but his test results show that he is male with a male-specific DSD, 46XY 5-ARD. That has been officially validated in his CAS appeal, so is not in any doubt at all, unlike Imane Khelif, about whom there is merely a strong suspicion. (Publicly at least - it seems likely that the IOC are aware of the actual results, but they have not been made public for now.)

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,702 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    … if he fathered children then obviously he's a man and as it happens only men suffer with DSDs as I discovered listening to Maya Yamauchi.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,705 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Using an extremely rare case of an xy person with a dsd and a uterus who was able to gestate a child and deliver by c section through extensive medical intervention as proof that xy doesn't equal male at all is a bit silly. That person is a biological anomaly. Some people are born with one leg, doesn't mean humans aren't bipedal. For the purposes of sporting events, a chromosome test is a pretty reliable way to determine the sex of a person and whether they should be competing in the male or female category.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,108 ✭✭✭✭chopperbyrne


    Not only men can have DSDs, but they are sex specific.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,628 ✭✭✭Augme


    Using an example of person with with a vagina and a uterusis a bit silly? Very strange conclusion. But st the end of the day everyone is entitled to an opinion. If people want to think people with a vagina, and a uterus are male then they are entitled to think that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,094 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    What's really truly hilarious in this is the logic being used by Khelif's supporters on here explaining it to all the people who normally don't follow any of this and are being peaked for the first time:

    New person: So the women's boxing final will be between two men?

    IOC and supporters: Of course not: they're in different weight categories so it wouldn't be fair.

    😁

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,803 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    I still cannot see how 'strength' would make an amateur boxer any better, assuming that they are already strong and working out in the gym every day. Amateur boxing is mostly about skill, speed, feinting, good footwork, excellent reaction times, clever defence and so on.

    The idea that a biological male would have some sort of massive inbuilt advantage over a female amateur boxer and even pose a physical threat to their health and safety is clearly nonsensical. Khelif has lost a load of amateur bouts, including to Kellie Harrington and Amy Broadhurst.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,094 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    So what is the point in maintaining male and female categories in boxing then?

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,438 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    You’re not seeing it because you’re thinking of strength as knock out power. Which is not the benefit.

    You mention speed. Where do you think speed comes from? The ability to shift your whole bodyweight quickly? Muscular power.

    “Assuming they are working out in the gym”. Why would they be working out in the gym if being stronger wasn’t a benefit?

    Why do weight divisions exist? Why are the sexes split? You’ve already been unable to answer, but worth restating.

    Using Khelif as evidence is pretty bad logic.
    1. She may not be a biological male, and

    2. Somebody losing doesn’t mean they didn’t have an unfair advantage.

    Assuming you are are male, you have a strength advantage. If you entered a women’s weightlifting division, would you have won? I doubt it. Your unfair advantage is offset by your skill deficit.

    If Khelif is biologically male, the fact they lost to Kellie simply highlights they can’t cut it technically.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,779 ✭✭✭EagererBeaver


    The idea that a biological male would have some sort of massive inbuilt advantage over a female amateur boxer and even pose a physical threat to their health and safety is clearly nonsensical

    Jesus f'in Christ.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,438 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    It is nothing to do with gender ideology. DSD refers to sex not gender.

    I’m not sure why you think sex specific means only male. It doesn’t. It can happen with either sex, but each (or most) case(s) have a specific sex.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,502 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Nature disagrees with you, both in homo sapiens and numerous other species.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Strength is absolutely a factor in boxing, from everything from taking a punch to giving one,

    I mean, Carini even said "I have never felt a punch like this" and some people are trying to argue strength isn't a factor here?

    Honest to God like.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,094 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Are you confusing homosexuality with transgenderism? Homosexual behaviour exists in animals but transgender?? I think not.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,988 ✭✭✭plodder


    Nikki Hiltz is female but identifies as trans and non-binary, neither of which has any relevance for sport. So, no issue there.

    “Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt” - Carl Jung



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,946 ✭✭✭Jack Daw


    Which if course is true.

    But it does ruin it for the people who think identity trumps everything as surely they shouldn't be in the women's race if they don't identify as female.

    For example Layisha Clarendon plays in the WNBA (the W stands for womens) and identifies as non-binary (i.e. not a woman) , she's got loads of praise from the usual sources which is fair enough but the same people who argue if you identify as a woman it means you're a woman don't seem to have a problem with Layisha playing in the WNBA despite Layisha not identifying as a woman.

    Logic doesn't come into it for a lot of people they just always go with the "favour to supposed minority/marginalised group" approach at all times irrespective of it being contradictory or lacking common sense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,803 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    How come Kellie Harrington and Amy Broadhust didn't feel the weight of her devastating punches when defeating her? In fact, Amy Broadhurst has been going out of her way this week to try and defend Khelif from the massive social media pile on against her.

    Kellie Harrington didn't notice anything unusual about her at the last Olympics other than that she was lanky with a long reach and an awkward opponent to box.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,884 ✭✭✭Enduro


    Can you explain to us why you think there are separate categories for male and female if (according to you) being male confers no advantages?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 840 ✭✭✭greyday


    If you dont get hit you dont feel the power, your assertion about strength not mattering in amateur boxing is absolute nonsense, it may not be as much a factor as technical ability but it is a big factor all the same.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,803 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    I would have no problem at all if the IOC decide to ban Khelif and other 'biological males' from the next Olympics. But much of the commentary this week (including from the very worst people on social media) has been bordering on hysterical : "a man beating up women", "female boxers are at risk of serious injury" etc. To the best of our knowledge, Khelif has never injured anyone during an amateur bout.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,234 ✭✭✭✭normanoffside


    i watched Kheilf against the Hungarian Hamori earlier in the tournament and simple jabs were rocking Hamori back and putting her off her rhythm allowing Khelif to follow up and score more points. It’s clear Kheilf’s power is a huge advantage.

    Harrington and Broadhurst are superior technical boxers and were able to avoid and dominate. That doesn’t negate Kheilf’s unfair advantage.

    Bottom line is that Khelif is a low level male boxer but is able to compete and win against elite women due to power and speed advantages.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,988 ✭✭✭plodder


    Yes, and it's her choice to do that. Just like Kellie Harrington doesn't make a big deal (as far as I can tell) about her sexuality. It's horses for courses. Some of this stuff doesn't matter at all, but some of it does, big time.

    “Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt” - Carl Jung



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,094 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Could you explain how it is "hysterical" to describe a person with XY chromosomes punching people with XX chromosomes as anything other than "a man beating up women"?

    The IOC decided in 1999 - against the wishes of more than 80% of the female athletes asked about it - to remove eligibility tests for the female category, and to accept a mere inspection of documents instead. FINA and several other world governing bodies have reinstated sex tests. There's a very simple, sensible reason for that.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 840 ✭✭✭greyday


    The IOC seems to think the passport is the get out of jail card when in fact it at the very least shows how little they care for womens sport.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 840 ✭✭✭greyday


    Cant do that as mistakes happen with children with DSD which only become obvious when kids hit teenage years.

    If it went as you said then there would be no issue with Khelif as she was observed to be female at birth as children suffering with certain forms of DSD can be even though they have internal testes which becomes more obvious the older they get.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,234 ✭✭✭✭normanoffside


    Another huge advantage of these ‘XY’ boxers is not having to go through their ‘time of the month’. I think that is being overlooked in these conversations. It’s even more true for boxers than other sports as not only do they have to compete in tournament that last weeks but also have to weigh in on fight day for every single fight or the competition.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,432 ✭✭✭✭Birneybau


    Nature disagrees with you, both in homo sapiens (citation needed)

    and numerous other species. (We going down the clownfish route?)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,438 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Thanks for confirming.
    Unfortunately you misunderstood what she said as she explained id badly. She's not actual educated in the matter.
    She's talkign about the issue of DSD males in female sports. DSD females exist, but it's not an issue as they've no advantage.

    It would have taken 2 seconds to google DSD to find you you were mistaken.

    DSDs are subdivided into groups in which the labels generally emphasize the karyotype's role in diagnosis:
    46,XX; 46,XY; sex chromosome; XX, sex reversal; ovotesticular disorder; and XY, sex reversal.

    2 Types are XY, 2 Types are XX, and the other two includes people with both sets of genitals, and/or XXY chromosomes.

    That was covered above. You are assume that she is a male, but lost but therefore have no advantage. The glaring hole in that being, there's no actually evidence that she is a male.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,094 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    There's very little reliable evidence that Khelif is female either. And since world governing bodies for other sports require a sex screening qualification such as a cheek swab, rather than a mere check of identity documents, the real question here is why the IOC refuse to do the same.

    Do they accept a national team's declarations of weight categories or do they insist on weigh-ins themselves? What about drug tests - do they take the teams' word on that, or do they retest themselves if there is any suspicion (and sometimes randomly, with no particular grounds for suspicion)?

    Why is the sex category different from the weight category, and requires (in the IOC's view) no protection against invalid registrations?

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



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