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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,118 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Asking for people not to be hateful is absolutely fine - but she did NOT say that Khelif was a woman and that she has no problem with having been put in the ring with a man. Quite the opposite. She is simply giving Khelif and the IOC the benefit of the doubt, for now.

    And she also said this, which is on the actual topic of fighting a biological male:

    So I would say that Amy Broadhurst is very much on the fence for the moment.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,365 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    And said this about fighting Khelif -

    https://x.com/amybroadhurst12/status/1818687351582789680

    Have a lot of people texting me over Imane Khelif. Personally I don’t think she has done anything to ‘cheat’. I thinks it’s the way she was born & that’s out of her control. The fact that she has been beating by 9 females before says it all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 841 ✭✭✭greyday


    I can think of someone, Carini is the most recent person who has fought the best version of Khelif so far and we saw what she felt she had to do to protect herself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,118 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Yes. That doesn't contradict anything I said. I think Khelif is quite possibly a victim too. I blame the IOC more than Khelif. The only thing I would disagree with in that tweet is that Amy hasn't taken into account the possiblity that Imane Khelif has been beaten by several women because s/he is a mediocre male boxer, rather than a very good but not unbeatable female one.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,365 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    "she did NOT say that Khelif was a woman and that she has no problem with having been put in the ring with a man."

    I don’t think she has done anything to ‘cheat’. I thinks it’s the way she was born.

    Then Broadhurst is posting pictures of Khelif as a young girl to strengthen her point.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,118 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    That's correct, she said she doesn't know yet. In the meantime she's giving her (Khelif) the benefit of the doubt. I would do so too, if I were a public figure.

    And it's undeniable that it's the way Khelif was born.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,421 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    I don't do Twitter, but I had a quick look at the first name and see no reference of him talking about the Harrington story which you replied about.

    I don't use it and I am surely doing something wrong, can you give a summary or a link to the tweet please.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,628 ✭✭✭Augme


    Again, where's the evidence in the male levels of testosterone in her body? Is it in her muscular size and frame?

    image.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    Holy cow, that ain't no woman 😳



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,598 ✭✭✭Harika


    The true facts are out there and summarized: it is complicated. Not that the sides are chosen here already and anyone would listen to the experts concerning this topic.
    Its sure open for discussion if she, and other women with this condition, should compete with other females.
    Only why did this flare up now, instead of Olympia 2020 when Katie Harrington defeated here? Is it because herself has become engulfed in this culture war?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,365 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    It's nothing to do with Kellie Harrington - despite the lies being spread about her on social media.

    It's down to bad reporting, people arguing and acting in bad faith and willfully misrepresenting the issue after the Russian controlled IBA, who have already been thrown out of the Olympics for being corrupt, stirred the shite at the perfect moment with their opaque statement about 'failed gender tests' which they refuse to provide evidence or further information .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,384 ✭✭✭✭hynesie08


    The true facts are out there and summarized

    I mean, that's just not true.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    Perhaps Amy is being circumspect and using female pronouns rather than face a social media pile on ?

    The Hollywood Reporter showed it really understood the issue:

    https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/general-news/jk-rowling-paris-boxing-controversy-1235964201/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,521 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Factually, they are unsure if the IBA testing method was valid or correct (or even politically motivated) so there is still doubts over the XY chromosome.

    The IOC is loathe to bring in a proper scientifically accurate gender test.

    The likely outcome is a proper testing procedure (I mean, they already have very invasive drug testing regimes with samples in cold storage for future tests) but there will be lots of worrying about "feelings" (on behalf of others) to work through first.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,118 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Perhaps you missed the discussions around the gender self identification laws for the Tokyo Olympics, but that doesn't mean they didn't happen. There were a lot of objections. It seems many people did not know specifically about Khelif who was an unknown at the time, compared to some of the more high profile athletes like Caster Semenya.

    But male DSD athletes competing in women's sports has been controversial for years if not decades.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,365 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    More evidence that the Russian-led IBA are playing everyone like a fiddle.

    https://taiwannews.com.tw/news/5912516

    https://taiwannews.com.tw/news/5912516

    During the 2023 New Delhi championships, Lin was asked to sign a document admitting to unspecified violations, a move she resisted, Lin said in an interview with Taiwan's Public Television Service. She was told that she would be stripped of her medal whether or not she signed her name.

    Taiwan’s Sports Administration conducted additional tests that confirmed Lin's eligibility for international competition. The IBA denied her an opportunity to appeal the disqualification.

    Sports Administration Director-General Cheng Shih-Chung (鄭世忠) said Wednesday (July 31) the Olympic Council of Asia Medical Commission conducted a thorough examination of Lin during her stay in Hangzhou, per Taiwan's Sports Administration.

    The tests confirmed that she is fully eligible to compete. 



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,917 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    There does seem to be a lot of performative hysteria around this issue in the last 24 hours, whatever one thinks of the topic. Khelif has been boxing for years, has lost nine fights to female boxers (including to Kellie Harrington and Amy Broadhurst) and has never injured anyone in the ring to the best of our knowledge.

    Kellie Harrington didn't note anything about her in the 2021 Olympics in the post fight interview, just that Khelif was awkward to box because of her height and long arms. It was a long way from being Harrington's toughest fight of her career - she almost strolled through the three rounds.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 22,875 ✭✭✭✭2smiggy


    has jk rowling submitted any proof that she is not transsexual ? until then we have to assume she is



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,365 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    I do think it's funny how suddenly, the usual suspects insists that a man CAN have a vagina.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,157 ✭✭✭Eoinbmw


    IOC could easily put this to bed with a simple swab test so why not?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,046 ✭✭✭plodder


    On the history of sex testing in sport, I found the article linked at the end of the post, and which was written in 2010.

    It does a good job of deconstructing some aspects of the history. For example, a lot of the Cold War fears in the West that the Russians were deliberately putting male competitors forward as females, turned out not to be true. In some cases at least, there was genuine confusion over the person’s sex. Also, the depictions of the “naked parades” and “groping” physical examinations are fairly gruesome. Nobody wants to bring those back.

    Also it’s interesting to learn that the IAAF (forerunner to World Athletics) stopped sex testing as far back as 1992, for reasons including “that modern sportswear was now so revealing that it seemed unfeasible that a man could masquerade as a woman”. I guess the concerns have developed a bit from that… Also that the IOC was initially resistant to change and persisted with genetic testing for 8 years longer.

    The article goes astray in a few places though imo. Look at this passage.

    Sex testing, after all, is a tautological (or at least circular) process: the activities which we recognise as sports are overwhelmingly those which favour a physiology which we consider ‘masculine’.

    Hmm. Where are we going with this?

    As a general rule, the competitor who is taller, has a higher muscle-to-fat ratio, and the larger heart and lungs (plus some other cardio-respiratory factors) will have the sporting advantage. It is therefore inevitable that any woman who is good at sport will tend to demonstrate a more ‘masculine’ physique than women who are not good at sport.

    That might be partly true in some (maybe most) sports. But, it doesn’t diminish their essential femininity, unless of course you don’t believe that there is a biological essence of femininity. Like, who is saying that women runners with narrow hips and low fat to muscle ratios are “less” women because of it? Literally nobody. Who even decreed that characteristics like height are intrinsically male? Surely, there are just tall men, and tall women? The average height of a centre in the WNBA is 6’4”. Does that make them more male than the average Irish man?

    What the sex test effectively does, therefore, is provide an upper limit for women's sporting performance; there is a point at which your masculine-style body is declared ‘too masculine’, and you are disqualified, regardless of your personal gender identity. For men there is no equivalent upper physiological limit – no kind of genetic, or hormonal, or physiological advantage is tested for, even if these would give a ‘super masculine’ athlete a distinct advantage over the merely very athletic ‘normal’ male.

    This is completely mad. But, it’s where the logic leads you when you downplay the biological differences between male and female. The lack of an objective sex test is the cause of hurtful speculation around the sex of female competitors, not the other way around. An objective test would sweep all that away.

    There’s more then about the significance of DSDs where the person has chromosome patterns other than XX and XY. This is what probably launched the sex as a spectrum mytgh, which only recently has been put to bed. Most unusual DSD chromosome “abnormalities” are still unambiguous in terms of sex/gender.

    This paragraph is really what comes closest to the nub of the issue imo.

    In the mid-1980s the high profile case of Spanish hurdler Maria Martinez-Patino, who fought a three-year campaign for reinstatement after being disqualified, was used to pressure the IOC and other organisations into changing (or eliminating) their sex tests. Patino failed a Barr Body test at the World University Games held in Kobe, Japan, in 1985, and was instructed by her coach to retire from sport with an ‘injury’; she refused to do so, and when she started competing in Spain again she was formally disqualified and had her medals and records revoked.25 Patino eventually succeeded in overturning the ruling, based on the principle that a specific medical condition (androgen insensitivity syndrome) meant that she ‘failed’ a Barr body test, while gaining no physiological sporting advantage – so the argument was not that testing for sex was problematic in and of itself, but rather than this specific test, using chromosomes as a proxy for sporting ability, was inappropriate. This successful appeal was almost certainly due to the fact that human rights activists and geneticists who did not believe the test was fair took up her cause as a test case through which they could make their points about equality, scientific objectivity, and the complexity of human gender identity

    “using chromosomes as a proxy for sporting ability”

    See how “sporting ability” was switched in there in place of “sex”. Women aren’t a category of their own who don't have to justify themselves. They are basically regarded as lower performing men.

    Maria Martinez-Patino is probably one of the hardest of the hard cases, but I wonder how they determined that she had no "physiological sporting advantage", as opposed to just a quite small one that was enough to propel her into international level athletics.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3007680/

    “Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt” - Carl Jung



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,031 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Not to mention that Carini said she's never been hit in the face that hard before (she's been knocked out 20+ times in her career), she got hit in the face about 10 seconds into the fight because she clearly dropped her guard, and she's previously been accused of faking an ankle injury because she was losing a fight.

    I mean they can talk about how being up against Khelif ruined her Olympic dream, and she was doing it in memory of her father etc…. maybe the truth of it is she's just not that good and took the easy way out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,917 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Also, amateur female boxers wear lightweight gloves, wear helmets and box for only nine minutes. The idea that one of them is going to be stretchered out of the ring covered in blood and unconscious after boxing a 'biological male' is really stretching things.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    Well said, and THAT is the elephant in the room as Sharon Davies keeps saying, I mean why not reintroduce the DNA cheek swab? Its foolproof, uninvasive, quick, and guaranteed to put an end to any question of the wrong people being in the wrong category! Womens sports it seems need more protecting now, than ever before.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭normanoffside


    it has flared up now because the IBA did a gender test which hadn’t been done previously. The IOC hasn’t done them since 1996.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭normanoffside


    Both boxers had the option to appeal the IBA ruling to CAS. Both accepted the ruling and didn’t appeal it, losing world championship medals in the process.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,628 ✭✭✭Augme


    The IBA have never stated they did a gender test.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,046 ✭✭✭plodder


    Previously been accused of faking an injury? By previously, I presume you mean earlier this morning, after all that happened yesterday. Looks like that guy stayed up all night looking for dirt, and that was the best he could find by 5:43 am today.

    “Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt” - Carl Jung



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