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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,384 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    McCarthy was ok I thought, except for the penalty for not rolling away, but I thought the ref was duped by De Klerk there somewhat. Can’t remember but I think it resulted in a kick at goal from that penalty which I think they scored.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,223 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Ireland don't produce many huge men in the pack. McCarthy is a huge man. He brings a level of grunt that most of our other forwards can't match. So many of our forwards are athletes rather than brutes, and you do need a few brutes. A few of our lads I would argue are a bit too nice and a bit too soft, McCarthy gives an edge to the team.

    He is prone to stupid penalties, but that's a consequence of his style of play. He brings a level of dirt that most of our forwards won't bring. He's raw but I think that's part of what works for him.

    It is not a coincidence that James Ryan has found himself dropped to the bench, McCarthy just brings more to the table.

    I would be very slow to drop him, especially against South Africa.



  • Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Alessandro Vast Numskull


    What does lowes one error have to do with this? He didnt decide the gamr there was 29 other players



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,527 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    You're twisting arguments again and trying to claim something I didn't say - I didn't for a second attempt to claim McCarthy is a better player (or even remotely close to) Eben Etzebeth. I said McCarthy had the arguably more effective game of the two of them on Saturday - that was the statement you originally took exception to, but haven't given anything to support your view.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,527 ✭✭✭FtD v2




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,972 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Case closed lads. South Africa investigated themselves and found no wrongdoing.

    Being serious though, they're an awful set up. Having a 'law specialist' give press conferences saying how great they are, just further emboldens them to push their lies in the media.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,527 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Not even surprised.

    It's evident to anyone who read the report on the Judicial Committee investigation into Rassie Erasmus' misconduct following the Lions tour years ago that Peyper has been doing Rassie's bidding for some time now.



  • Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Alessandro Vast Numskull


    I didnt say that youve suggested mccarthys a better player though. My entire point has been ebens more rounded and judging who had a better game because something mccarthy specialises in is easier to gets stats for is not really fair



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,372 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Nathan Doak and Dave Heffernen joining up with the squad. Feels like a waste of time, but I suppose there is always the danger that Murray/Blade or Kelleher/Herring could pull up in training.

    At least it will be good experience for Doak to get to train with the squad



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,527 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    It's pretty disgraceful that the South Africans are doing this. I thought it was wrong when Peyper took a formal role with them pretty much as soon as he retired from refereeing, but at the time it was presented as he was going to work with the Boks on the training ground to improve their discipline etc.

    When he was hired, this was discussed relatively extensively:

    I expressed the view then that the South Africans would use this nefariously to try and pressure and influence referees, and it's pretty much already been borne out here. Because they won at the weekend and got the rub of the green with virtually every significant decision, Jaco, the highly experienced former test referee is out patting them on the head (the same refereeing team who'll referee this coming weekend) and telling them what good little boys they are.

    What would he be saying if SA had lost and had some of the decisions go against them like we had?

    It's completely inappropriate as a former referee that he's doing this formally on behalf of the SA coaching ticket. He's talking and pretending like he's still some sort of neutral arbiter, but his language is a joke:

    "Then it becomes a debate whether it should be a penalty to Ireland because he was touched to the neck. That is debatable," added Peyper ...'

    Debatable? Taking the absolute piss.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,766 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    But apparently Etzebeth being on the Irish team instead of the SA team would have meant we would have won? That's a bold statement given there were 29 other players and he was hovering around half way in the performance stakes of the 30

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,766 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I still think Ryan is more technically, and frankly physically, effective at both offensive and defensive rucks though. I think McCarthy might have a higher ceiling there, and I agree his brute strength is better in general. but Ryan was the better player in that game for me.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,766 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    He is, to all intents and purposes, just another member of the coaching staff and his comments should be given commensurate weight (i.e. none really). I'm sure the reffing teams broadly see it the same way to be honest, because it is incredibly transparent.



  • Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Alessandro Vast Numskull


    In your opinion he was hovering over half way in performance. The difference being im not pointing out a single moment from etzebeth and saying that would have changed the game



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,527 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Yeah, I completely get it, and I also get there is next to nothing that can be done to stop it, but it's clearly a slippery slope.

    He's still attempting to present it as if it's from the benefit of his vast refereeing experience, rather than his incredibly partisan, blinkered role in the Springbok coaching booth.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,349 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Probably has to be done. Good for them to bring out two newer faces to the set-up to give them the experience.



  • Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Alessandro Vast Numskull


    Heffernanais an odd one stewart must be injured



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,766 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    No, you're saying had he played for Ireland we would have won despite him having no discernable impact for SA.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Alessandro Vast Numskull


    Yes ans as i said thats your opinion that he had no discernable impact



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    It's a combination, you seem to have very little experience of watching Big Joe so will leave you to continue on with this ramble.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


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  • Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Alessandro Vast Numskull


    Thats a fairly lazy way to shut down anyone that disagrees with you



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,613 ✭✭✭SaoPaulo41


    Owen Doyle: Ireland-South Africa match officials unlikely to enjoy performance reviews after poor day

    https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -poor-day/

    “Ground control to Major Tom, you’re off your course, direction’s wrong.”

    For some odd, or maybe obvious, reason David Bowie’s lyrics came to mind as Ben Whitehouse called in, or didn’t, from his TMO command centre to referee Luke Pearce.

    Let’s look at the Craig Casey incident when, strangely, there was no call from Whitehouse. Casey was in possession as recent Munster team-mate RG Snyman came past the ruck, probably offside too. He first tried to impede Casey’s pass by targeting his arm. He failed, the ball was gone when he proceeded to tackle the scrumhalf, driving him backwards and into the ground where his head smacked violently on the turf. Casey was knocked out cold, it was a sickening moment of grave concern.

    It was a late tackle off the ball, and pretty high too. It demanded a review, but there was only silence from the TMO. As recently as last week, this column emphasised that there are very dangerous tackles where there is no direct collision with the head, and this was one. Given the head contact protocols, the outcome may well have been excused as “a rugby incident,” a term I always find bordering on ludicrous.

    But, here we are again, tethered by protocols, and not guided by the laws of the game. There is also something in the equation called a duty of care, which the tackler certainly didn’t seem overly worried about. It was 131kg driving needlessly into 76kg, clearly dangerous, and there is no greater proof of that than the outcome. I am very willing to take any brickbats of disagreement, and there’ll probably be plenty, I’d guess, from South Africa.

    But such a tackle, which can result in a very serious brain injury, merits a lot more than “play on”, There have to be consequences. I don’t believe that the TMO should be the final arbiter of such player actions, involving serious injury. It has to be the ref’s call.

    Neither can I comprehend how Pearce, watching Casey receive prolonged treatment, didn’t want to see for himself. Caelan Doris certainly wanted him to, but instead he told the player off, albeit politely.

    Whitehouse did call up Pearce, to deny James Lowe a try, after a wondrous run down the touchline. Hawk-eyed, the TMO had spotted a potential offence by Ronan Kelleher in a ruck, seconds before. The hooker had gone to ground, the ball striking his foot before emerging on Ireland’s side. Pearce had a direct view of it, and had not whistled it. That’s the crux of the matter – it was a referee decision in a ruck, not for the TMO. However, what he should have picked up was the neck roll on Kelleher which helped put him on the deck in the first place. Ireland would then, at least, have had a penalty, which instead went the other way.

    Lowe mixed the good with the bad. His successful attempt to keep the ball in play, with no idea of who was behind him, was unwise. The risk-reward balance was unfavourably skewed, quite the opposite of his sumptuous offload for Jamie Osborne’s score. It led directly to Kolbe’s try, although it took a lengthy study to decide that Lowe was no longer in possession before his foot was on the ground in touch.

    There is a another consideration here. The law states that the ball is in touch if it, or the ball carrier, touches the touchline or anything beyond. Having released the ball, the question is, if it then hit Lowe’s thigh, does that qualify as “anything beyond” the touchline. There’ll be mixed views on it, with the only opinion which counted – Whitehouse’s – ruling that there was nothing clear and obvious for Pearce to overturn his on-field “try” decision.

    Lowe was also involved in the correctly awarded penalty try for South Africa. Playing the ball deep in Ireland’s in-goal, uncharacteristically he fumbled it; Pearce awarded the inevitable five-metre scrum. The “bomb squad” had arrived en masse, just in time to play a mere 30 minutes of an 80-minute match, which raises again serious safety concerns. They did their business, completely splintering the Ireland pack, with Kelleher singled out for a yellow card.

    There was more TMO involvement when the referee was persuaded by Doris to look at his grounding of the ball for a possible try in the second half. One camera angle showed the ball to be short of the line, and that was enough for Whitehouse to rule it out. But there was another angle which seemed to show a clear, if very brief, grounding. Ireland will have a big query on this one, among many others.

    Doris and Pearce had an interesting relationship throughout the afternoon, with the Irishman getting under the ref’s skin at times. That’s not really a great idea, but, at times, it was hard to blame him. Assistant Rob Dickson, in charge next Saturday, will have taken good note of the exchanges. The match officials are unlikely to enjoy their performance reviews. They had a poor day, in what was a thunderously ferocious contest.

    In addition to World Rugby’s specialist review group on the red card replacement, there are two additional groups working away. One is studying the whole matter of TMO involvement; the other on the question of replacements, aka “bomb squads”.

    The groups are due to come up with recommendations for adoption by World Rugby’s council, in November. That meeting cannot come soon enough, both have evolved into something which was never intended. They are in real Major Tom territory – completely off course



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    I made my point, as I said you seem to have little experience of watching Big Joe so pointless going forward.

    Im not shutting down anything, people don't have to respond to every ramble you go off on

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Whitehouse has history and nobody has done anything about him so far, don't expect anything to change



  • Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Alessandro Vast Numskull


    Sure he can defend his opposing number. Huge and unusual skill for an international rugby player you have me there

    Iv watched plenty of him iv rewatched games where iv followed just him he has huge potential as a second row but people have gotten compleatly carried away with what he is now



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,766 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    We won 99% of rucks to their 95%. Our maul was pretty effective. Our scrum was close to on top until our subs came on. If you really pushed it then he was a more successful receiver in the lineout. However, SA did not win that game through the forward pack at all. If anything we had their number there and they had more pace (and luck frankly) in the backline.

    You are the one who made the incredibly bold statement, it would be nice to back it up with something.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Alessandro Vast Numskull


    The increadibly bold statment being that i dont think carry stats are a fair judge of mccarthys game vs etzebeth's? Is that really increadibly bold?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,766 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    This incredibly bold statement

    We win that game if etzebeth is playing for us

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Alessandro Vast Numskull




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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,766 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    He wasn't on Saturday.

    This obsession with SA locks some people have is ridiculous. Of the starting locks Beirne and Mostert were comfortably the best and Etzebeth and McCarthy were about average. Of the bench locks Ryan was head and shoulders above Snyman (and probably more impactful than Etzebeth overall).

    None of this is a commentary on them as players for their career - Etzebeth is one of the greatest ever. Ireland have generally handled him well to our credit and he had an off day.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


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