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Enoch Burke is The Prisoner

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,448 ✭✭✭amacca


    Ah...so there is a route that at least results in some sort of consequence for printing lies.

    Fair enough.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 544 ✭✭✭myfreespirit


    In a well ordered society, there should indeed be consequences for the publishers of falsehoods, lies, untruths, whatever you want to call Irish Independent "journalism" such as the article about Burke.

    A proper media regulator should be able to hit them where it hurts, with a substantial monetary fine for printing lies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,333 ✭✭✭hoodie6029




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 863 ✭✭✭Hungry Burger


    You think it’s acceptable for a newspaper to print a load of lies about someone just because you don’t like them?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 406 ✭✭Kilteragh




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 909 ✭✭✭gk5000


    The apology was several months later.

    EB would have been better going the malicious falsehood route, and irrespective shoud have forced the indo to back up their claims of "usual trusted source" and without that could have proved reckless/malice.
    Still may not have been able to prove any actuall loss.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,333 ✭✭✭hoodie6029


    I actually feel sorry for him and all the children. They are all brainwashed members of a cult and have no hope of escaping it.
    Press ethics is a whole other thread. It would not be served well by debating it here based on this one tiny case.

    This is water. Inspiring speech by David Foster Wallace https://youtu.be/DCbGM4mqEVw?si=GS5uDvegp6Er1EOG



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 406 ✭✭Kilteragh


    Yep so the case he took was only about defamation and he lost.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,346 ✭✭✭✭LambshankRedemption




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,448 ✭✭✭amacca


    This is quite an interesting discussion for me personally...I realise I know next to nothing about the law!



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 17,324 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    He was back in court again today seeking to have the original court injunction overturned (the one requiring him to stay away from the school).

    As expected , it didn't go well as Enoch was demanding summary judgement and immediate resolution.

    There were testy exchanges between Mr Burke and Mr Justice Sanfey after the teacher repeatedly asked the judge to deal with his application there and then.

    The Judge said he was unwilling to do so as the school had only been made aware of the application this morning and would need time to consider its position.

    “Mr Burke effectively comes before the court and says his application is so convincing and so clear that not only should I accede to the application without giving the opportunity to the other side to consider it, but that I should apologise to him for his incarceration going on this long,” said Mr Justice Sanfey“

    This unfortunately is the sort of specious nonsense I have had to listen to from Mr Burke over the last year. Mr Burke is well aware of the necessity to give parties to an action notice when an application is brought before the court.”

    And again , the Judge offered him a simple way to get out of Prison and again Enoch declined to take up the offer.

    Mr Justice Sanfey said that if Mr Burke’s indicated he would give an undertaking to abide by Mr Justice Owens’ order, then he could be released.

    “Like every other citizen of this country you must comply with orders of this court,” he said.

    However, the teacher repeatedly insisted he was “not in contempt of the law” and claimed the court had “no regard for the constitution”.

    And round and round the circus goes..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,333 ✭✭✭hoodie6029


    ’You must hold up the Law of God (as I see it today)’

    To hell with the rest of us, we’re godless heathens that are doomed.

    This is water. Inspiring speech by David Foster Wallace https://youtu.be/DCbGM4mqEVw?si=GS5uDvegp6Er1EOG



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,363 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    So he is saying he should be out of prison and back at work…no judge can actually let him out if he is going to go straight back to that school.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'd rather spend my eternity in the company of doomed godless heathens then the Burkes.

    (BYOB).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,333 ✭✭✭hoodie6029


    This is water. Inspiring speech by David Foster Wallace https://youtu.be/DCbGM4mqEVw?si=GS5uDvegp6Er1EOG



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭blueythebear


    Sorry but this is incorrect. The burden of proof is on the plaintiff to prove malice in relation to the impugned statement for malicious falsehood. It also only relates to untrue statements in relation to the plaintiffs profession. Saying that he was preaching in prison does not affect his profession or trade as a teacher.

    Finally, he would have to show special damage caused by the statement, i.e. tangible financial loss.

    Defamation was the appropriate route forhim to take despite the statement while being untrue was not defamatory.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,055 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    I’d imagine an afternoon of the aul one screeching like a banshee would feel like an eternity



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 909 ✭✭✭gk5000


    Not quite correct either,

    There's no point in argueing that defamation was appropriate, as it failed.
    I agree on the loss, that may be the stumbling block of malicious falsehood, but it is not exclusively trade and profession. And maybe he could argue that the publication prevented him getting a job/job back…

    From Section 42 of defamation act on malicious falsehood:
    ..the plaintiff shall be required to prove that the statement upon which the action is founded—
    (a) was untrue
    (b) was published maliciously, and
    (c) referred to the plaintiff, his or her property or his or her office, profession, calling, trade or business.

    so he's got a and c, and the indo was at minimum reckless as regards b.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭blueythebear


    His defamation case failed because he could not fulfill all of the necessary proofs. Malicious falsehood is even more tenuous however.

    He has a) only in the above. He could not possibly prove the paper acted maliciously in the circumstsnces. Thepaper acted in good faith based on info from trusted sources. There is no malice or recklessness in that.

    The Statute is very clear that the impugned statement must affect him in his trade or profession etc. This is absolutely not the case here so c) is not fulfilled either.

    That said, this is all academic really on the malicious falsehood bit. Burke has at every turn shot himself in the foot in relation to this entire debacle. The whole thing is a farce and the onlyremedy is to leave him there till he sees sense or gives up. Neither is an attractive option but the law must be obeyed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 909 ✭✭✭gk5000


    I fully agree on Burke being left there till he purges his contempt.
    But, I don't think the indo should get away with spouting bs either, even if he doesn't have a reputation.

    On c above, it is from the Statute. It only has to refer to the plaintiff…ie him, irrespective of his trade/profession. He still has to prove loss and that may need trade/profession so thats still tricky.

    But on b, "trusted source" …on who's say so? sounds reckless to me trusting a source who is proved untrustworthy. What's the evidence that they are to be trusted? And does the trusted source really exist?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,896 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    For such a well-educated family, their behaviour seems self-destructive.

    There surely must be a better way to direct their energies.

    His sister Ammi seems to have taken a case to the WRC over what was a minor mis-communication, blown out of all proportions. She has lost a good job paying 70k over a trivial issue.

    The prisoners and the majority of the population agree with him on the substantive issue, but I feel his tactics have backfired.

    I dealt with two of his siblings in a professional capacity, very educated, polite, articulate.

    What is the end-game? He can hardly stay in jail forever?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,743 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    that’s what I’m wondering…..

    Does Enoch just break and purge his contempt ? The only other way he walks is if a presidential pardon is issued which I doubt very much will transpire. That has to be recommended / requested by politicians….

    So he basically there until he breaks…. Almost 9 months in there… I’ve a feeling it’s going to run and run.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,177 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    The majority of the population agree with him on the substantive issue.

    By this, do you mean him misgendering a student? Or all of the rigmarole he's caused with the school? Or his unwillingness to abide by the courts' rulings?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭blueythebear


    I agree that the indo should not be publishing false articles at all whether defamatory or not.

    On the truetedsource, the journalist gave evidence that there was a confidential source for the original story. She then verified the story with a second source. Her sources, after publication informed her that the story was not accurate and a correction issued some time after.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 723 ✭✭✭Hoof Hearted2


    Agreed, incredibly sad to see intelligent, well educated people completely lose the run of themselves and for what?

    Endgame? I guess Enoch and the Burkes come to their senses and respect the rule of law or the rest of us all bow to their superior, unquestionable, unalterable knowledge!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,333 ✭✭✭hoodie6029


    The majority of the population do not agree with him. The only people out protesting in his support are the Burkes. Online likes and comments do not count as support when they are not reflected in the real world.
    It’s a story that generates clicks so the media follow it. It is an unusual story too. That will always generate interest. Uber religious guy standing at a school gate for months at a time isn’t something you come across every day.
    He will never stop trying to attend Wilson’s. Prision is the only place for him. I know it is very unlikely to happen but the only hope he has is if a specialist can break his brainwashing. But 40 odd years of it, surrounded by it and probably indoctrinated the younger members of the family and kept them in line, I don’t hold much hope.

    This is water. Inspiring speech by David Foster Wallace https://youtu.be/DCbGM4mqEVw?si=GS5uDvegp6Er1EOG



  • Site Banned Posts: 33,931 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    It's not just that she lost a well paying job, she lost an entire career by making herself unemployable. No solicitor's firm in the country would touch her with a very, very long barge pole now, after her antics on the employment case and elsewhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 544 ✭✭✭myfreespirit


    I agree that there must be a better way for them to direct their energies.

    But, and it is a big but, they are consistently behaving like mindless zealots, religious fanatics from the Middle Ages, so I doubt that the majority of the population agrees with him.

    Brenda Power, writing in the Sunday Times a while back, argued (correctly, in my view) that Enoch Burke has done immeasurable harm to the view that transgender ideology has gone too far. I'm inclined to agree with her.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,199 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    I feel bad for any unrelated Burke from Castlebar as that name is surely a massive red flag not worth risking now.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,459 ✭✭✭scottser


    Ironically, if a couple of them moved to the US and campaigned from there they would find themselves very welcome and in demand quite quickly. They could fund this nonsense for ages and drag us into a culture war we're not really ready for.



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