Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Former Former Former · 14-06-2024 10:45AM

hang on til I get my barge pole.

aloooof · 14-06-2024 11:04AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122258534#Comment_122258534

It's true tho….

You're essentially taking 2 games prior to the EI tour as evidence of him being 3rd choice when it's pretty obvious that losing 9 guys for ~3 games would've had an influence on that selection.

We simply don't know.

14-06-2024 11:08AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122258619#Comment_122258619

Or, of course, the entire season prior to that.

aloooof · 14-06-2024 11:09AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122258638#Comment_122258638

Where Munster had a different head-coach picking the team? That entire season?

14-06-2024 11:12AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122258642#Comment_122258642

I don't know why you seem to get so much enjoyment out of having literally the same arguments over and over again.

aloooof · 14-06-2024 11:15AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122258659#Comment_122258659

Look, if you want to argue that JVG seeing Crowley as 3rd choice in the 2021/22 season means Rowntree also saw Crowley as 3rd choice in the following season, you can…

I'm just pointing out it's not rooted in logic.

Clo-Clo · 14-06-2024 11:20AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122258256#Comment_122258256

Not really, he has no say over who Farrell picks.

Clo-Clo · 14-06-2024 11:21AM

Interesting thought, has Rassie ever beaten an Ireland or Leinster side as a coach?

Might be why he is so hung up on Ireland even with a WC in his back pocket, two actually

aloooof · 14-06-2024 11:25AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122258700#Comment_122258700

Beat Leinster in Thomond in his 1 season with Munster.

Less certain about Ireland; I think they may have only played twice tho (RWC group, and AI?), even tho he's been there so comparatively long, what with Covid.

pickarooney · 14-06-2024 11:26AM

BOOOORING.

Give it a rest.

14-06-2024 11:27AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122258672#Comment_122258672

*le sigh * -

There is logic - Rowntree was still a significant part of that coaching ticket. He obviously had some input (you don't need to go posting what I already know you're going to post about how sometimes we've seen coaches change their views when the get the head coaching job).

Coming into that season Crowley had played 15 times total for Munster, 5 starts, for 506 mins. Ben Healy, who was roughly 6 months older than him, had played 3x as many games, more than 3.5x as many starts and more than 3.3x as many minutes as him. Carbery - who had spent considerable time injured over the previous couple of seasons had also racked up almost 3x as many minutes and more than 3x as many starts.

There is the fact that Healy started the two pre-season friendlies and the opening game of the URC.

But - the most significant point of logic supporting it is the very fact that if Munster viewed Crowley ahead of Healy in early September 2022 then I think it would have been Ben Healy going on the EI tour (as apparently Ireland originally wanted). Munster supposedly pushed back on Healy travelling because they needed him for those early season URC games while Carbery was still coming back from injury.

aloooof · 14-06-2024 11:31AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122258722#Comment_122258722

the most significant point of logic supporting it is the very fact that if Munster viewed Crowley ahead of Healy in early September 2022 then I think it would have been Ben Healy going on the EI tour (as apparently Ireland originally wanted). Munster supposedly pushed back on Healy travelling because they needed him for those early season URC games while Carbery was still coming back from injury.

That's not fact; it's conjecture.

Sigh indeed.

Paul Smeenus · 14-06-2024 11:33AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122258429#Comment_122258429

Yeah, I know I'm a bit repetitive about this, but Deegan has been leapfrogged into Irish squads by Timoney, amongst others.

The idea that it would be easier to edge your way into being a starting Ireland backrow player by becoming first choice back row at Leinster than being in the squad, being on the bench and impressing on what starts you do get is fairly wide of the mark, I'd say.

14-06-2024 11:34AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122258745#Comment_122258745

It was widely discussed on podcasts at the time, and was largely reported that the whole tour itself was for guys who weren't first choice at their provinces.

You, of course, are very well aware of this, but are choosing to ignore it because it doesn't suit your narrative here.

Paul Smeenus · 14-06-2024 11:35AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122258697#Comment_122258697

I'd say Farrell agrees with him, otherwise he wouldn't be saying this in public.

aloooof · 14-06-2024 11:41AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122258761#Comment_122258761

whole tour itself was for guys who weren't first choice at their provinces.

I'm not ignoring it. You're moving the goalposts. I agree entirely that it clearly wasn't for first choice. That wasn't what was being discussed and doesn't contradict anything I've said.

The whole "it doesn't suit your narrative" thing seems a bit rich when you're not giving much mass to the fact that Munster had a completely different head coach from one season to the next….

Clo-Clo · 14-06-2024 11:43AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122258767#Comment_122258767

You think Farrell is micromanaging what Humphries says?

Farrell as we have seen has his own selection criteria which can go against the provinces

After a hugely successful period for Nucifora in the mens game I think Humphries has bigger fish to fry in his job than trying to get stuck into the middle of a pointless argument which will never end well

Clo-Clo · 14-06-2024 11:45AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122258761#Comment_122258761

Crowley was 3rd choice at best, even after the EI tour he came back and wasn't playing many games at 10, Joey was starting and then when he fell out of favour it was the ginger Scot

The narritive pushed by some is the one of the main reasons Munster had poor form at the start of the season was due to the EI tour which is nonsense to me, it was the integration of a new coaching team and game plan. Similar to the results seen when Joe took over at Leinster

If Crowley wasn't on the EI tour at best he might have got on the bench as a backup centre, Joey and ginger Scot would have ben playing 10 and 10 off the bench

aloooof · 14-06-2024 11:49AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122258823#Comment_122258823

even after the EI tour he came back and wasn't playing many games at 10,

Because of injuries elsewhere. He was clear 2nd choice when they cleared up and became 1st choice from the Sharks game onwards.

The narritive pushed by some is the one of the main reasons Munster had poor form at the start of the season was due to the EI tour which is nonsense to me, it was the integration of a new coaching team and game plan

And you don't think the EI tour, being announced so late in the day, might have interfered with the integration of the new coaching team in some way?

If Crowley wasn't on the EI tour at best he might have got on the bench as a backup centre, Joey and ginger Scot would have ben playing 10 and 10 off the bench

This isn't rooted in reality either; Rowntree, perhaps more than anyone last season, showed he was happy to pick on form.

14-06-2024 11:50AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122258803#Comment_122258803

That's literally your only point in support of your argument.

Whereas I am saying he was third choice because he evidently had been (with all the stats to support it) prior to that, he went onto the EI tour because Munster at that point rated Ben Healy more highly, and Ben Healy started ahead of him for the three games prior to the EI tour (incl 2 friendlies).

As @Clo-Clo points out; it was April 2023 before he started 2 games back to back in the 10 jersey for Munster.

I've no interest in pursuing this argument any further. I didn't have much interest the last 3 or 4 times we had the exact same argument either.

aloooof · 14-06-2024 11:55AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122258850#Comment_122258850

Look, if you don't think the squad selection for the EI tour had any influence on selection for those 3 games, that's an argument you can make, but again it's not one I'd agree with.

Happy to leave it at that.

Lost Ormond · 14-06-2024 12:22PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122257954#Comment_122257954

Over reliance on private schools is an issue and problem.

It's not the lack of other sources they're there but don't yet across the board have enough resources to develop players on a regular basis to peo level.

We do need to attract more players from other codes but we still are not doing enough to get potential pros/top level players enough high level training at an early enough age for them to progress to the elite game. The guys in your top schools as a whole are getting the video reviews, cosched gym sessions, 3 pitch sessions etc that pros do but it's nowhere near as prevalent outside the top schools. We can find a lot more tadhg furlongs, Jack o donoghues, Tom aherns etc by getting more coaching and work into the clubs and regional squads so more players outside the schools see that level of training. Getting players from other codes would of course be great but work on those playing the sport first.

Paul Smeenus · 14-06-2024 01:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122258811#Comment_122258811

No. I'd imagine the two men have met and talked, and they're broadly in agreement.

Whether or hot Humphreys has bigger fish to fry, it's something he's addressed in his first media event since taking over.

AbusesToilets · 14-06-2024 01:21PM

I'd argue a bigger issue has been the substandard level of coaching at the other 3 Provinces for the guts of a decade. Munster are finally playing good, attractive rugby. Can hardly blame a Leinster lad being encouraged to move, turning it down after seeing the dross on the pitch. Hopefully Murphy can get Ulster humming again, criminal waste of talent there under MacFarland.

14-06-2024 01:29PM

I thought what he said about project players and that avenue drying up to be pretty interesting.

It is going to be very tough for any province to replace that indigenously with the same quality players as well as their normal output.

Getting players from other codes (unless he means guys who play both) seems kind of pipe dreamy in the short term.

Paul Smeenus · 14-06-2024 01:31PM

Have we (Ulster) had a project player since Payne?

Clo-Clo · 14-06-2024 01:38PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122259397#Comment_122259397

Not really what he said now, he said 3 years are gone and you are not going to see the same across the World, I expect he means the same amount of players we current have, he didn’t say it had dried up

He more or less said what most sensible people, including me, have been saying for years. The identification of talent is the issue and the provinces are not really taking talent from other sports like GAA.

Have any of the provinces maximised the pool of young players of sport? I think everyone has agreed they are not even close, maybe at max 25%? If even that

Clo-Clo · 14-06-2024 01:42PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122258973#Comment_122258973

The private school are not a problem

It is the lack of identification of talent from other area

Why would you call the best section a problem?
The problem is all the provinces need to identify and convert young players into rugby by other means than the private schools…..

That’s does not mean the private school are a problem, all the other routes are the problem and the private schools are functioning as they should

aloooof · 14-06-2024 01:44PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122259494#Comment_122259494

Lost Ormond can speak for himself, but he didn't say the private schools were the problem.

He said the over-reliance on them, is the problem. Which is explained, at least in part, by the disparity in resources. (My reading is he's agreeing with you).

14-06-2024 01:46PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122259465#Comment_122259465

How do you just 'take' guys from other sports that aren't playing rugby as well?

The vast majority of irish internationals played rugby since young, and then played at private schools with amazing facilities and access to good coaching and lots of practice time. In fact, a big chunk did that through only two schools. And even more importantly, that's essentially free to the provinces and the irfu. Someone else is paying for that.

Expanding that pool is a good goal but its also a much more expensive longer term goal.

Edit: i don't agree on the project player thing. That's generally dead.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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