Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

RichieRich_89 · 11-06-2024 04:46PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122246939#Comment_122246939

I went through a few weeks ago seeing who you could pick that would still leave the provinces with strong XXIIIs to play in the URC:

Lh: Jack Boyle, Callum Reid, Temi Lasisi

H: Lee Barron, Eoghan Clarke, James McCormick

Th: Fiachna Barrett, Ronan Foxe, Darragh McSweeney

Sr: Jean Kleyn, Conor O’Tighearnaigh, Darragh Murray, Joe Hopes

Bs: Josh Murphy, Lorcan O’Loughlin

Os: Reuben Crothers, Liam Molony

No. 8: James Culhane, James McNabney

Sh: Matthew Devine, Fintan Gunne, Colm Reilly

Oh: Sam Prendergast, Tony Butler

Lw: Aaron Sexton, Chay Mullins

Ic: Jude Postlethwaite, John Devine

Oc: Hugh Gavin, Hugh Cooney

Rw: Tommy O’Brien, Shane Jennings

Fb: Jack Kelly, Patrick Campbell

URC sides:

Leinster: 1. Michael Milne, 2. John McKee, 3. Thomas Clarkson, 4. Brian Deeny, 5. Alexis Soroka, 6. Diarmuid Mangan, 7. Will Connors, 8. Max Deegan, 9. Cormac Foley, 10. Ross Byrne/Harry Byrne, 11. Andrew Osborne, 12. Ben Brownlee, 13. Liam Turner, 14. Robert Russell, 15. Henry McErlean; 16. Gus McCarthy, 17. Paddy McCarthy, 18. Rory McGuire, 19. Martin Moloney, 20. Scott Penny, 21. Luke McGrath, 22. Charlie Tector, 23. Aitzol Arenzana-King

Munster: 1. Loughman/Wycherley, 2. Scannell, 3. Ryan, 4. Wycherley, 5. Evan O’Connell, 6. O’Donoghue, 7. Hodnett, 8. Coombes, 9. Patterson, 10. Burns, 11. Daly, 12. Nankivell, 13. Farrell, 14. Kilgallen, 15. Haley; 16. Barron, 17. Wycherley/Kieran Ryan/Mark Donnelly, 18. Archer/Salanoa, 19. Hurley, 20. Kendellen, 21. Coughlan, 22. Scannell, 23. Sean O’Brien

Connact: 1. Buckley, 2. Heffernan, 3. Aungier, 4. Joyce, 5. Niall Murray, 6. Prendergast, 7. Oliver, 8. O’Brien, 9. Blade, 10. Carty, 11. Smith, 12. Forde, 13. O’Conor; 14. Bolton, 15. Cordero; 16. Tierney-Martin, 17. Dooley, 18. Illo, 19. Dowling, 20. Jansen, 21. Ben Murphy, 22. Hawkshaw, 23. Ralston

Ulster: 1. Warwick, 2. Stewart. 3. Wilson, 4. Sheridan, 5. Treadwell, 6. Izuchukwu, 7. Rea, 8. McCann, 9. Cooney, 10. Flannery, 11. Lowry, 12. Moore, 13. Baloucoune, 14. Kok, 15. McIlroy; 16. Andrew, 17. O’Sullivan, 18. Moore, 19. O’Connor, 20. Rea, 21. Doak, 22. Humphreys, 23. Moxham

But if internationals might be back for the URC that could change the equation quite a bit.

aloooof · 11-06-2024 04:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122246661#Comment_122246661

Players who in reality like the last time would at best maybe have a slot on a bench

This is simply untrue. Just for Munster alone, there were lots of players selected last time who were in and around our start 15/23.

awec · 11-06-2024 04:53PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122247000#Comment_122247000

And yet the competition has steadily gone from strength to strength

This is some serious re-writing of history. The league was an absolute joke for years. They have made balls ups with sponsorships (let's not forget they had to go an entire season without a sponsor as nobody thought their product was worth giving money to), they have made balls ups with tv deals.

The league was pulled up out of a mire by the arrival of the South African teams (the 4 current ones, not the 2 crap ones that they brought on board initially) who injected some desperately needed quality but also money into the competition.

While it is not as bad as it was 4 or 5 years ago, it still has some half-arsed-ness about it. We still get players pulled out of league games for emerging tours. We still have unions scheduling test matches outside of test windows and pulling players out of league games. We still have nonsensical referee selections, Irish refs in Irish derbies, Munster refs in Munster games.

Strength to strength is quite the mental gymnastics.

aloooof · 11-06-2024 05:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122246939#Comment_122246939

Happy to hear arguments for who else might be in the mix, but it doesn't look like it'll overly weaken Leinster or Munster IMO.

Even then it'll depend on injuries. Munster notionally had Conway and Earls back but both were injured while Nash and Daly were on the EI tour.

Then, iirc, Haley was injured and Zebo (and Liam Coombes) got injured.

It left us with Carbery at FB and 2 academy wingers. In total, I think our entire back 3 had ~2 starts in their respective positions for Munster.

Maybe that was an outlier of injuries concentrated in one position/area, but it's always a possibility.

aloooof · 11-06-2024 05:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122247040#Comment_122247040

This overlooks injuries tho.

RichieRich_89 · 11-06-2024 05:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122247130#Comment_122247130

Yes, and you can probably figure on about 20% of your players being injured at any one time. I'm plucking that figure out of thin air to some extent, but also I seem to remember reading it somewhere.

But anyway it seems the international players will be filtering back in by then if the tour's in October rather than September. If Leinster have Porter back, for example, both Boyle and Paddy McCarthy could feature for the EI side without it overly weakening Leinster.

sydthebeat · 11-06-2024 05:25PM

It overlooks Leinster having Snyman and connacht having hurley Langton as well

Former Former Former · 11-06-2024 05:25PM

If we're serious about developing depth for the national team, then we have to try something different and this is a good way to do it. It's absolutely better than a random Wolfhounds game when the team meets up in the car park an hour before the game and no-one learns anything.

Is it a reasonable trade-off to weaken the provinces for a couple of URC games? If it increases our prospects at the next RWC, even marginally, then it's not even a question in my mind.

But does it weaken them? Looking back at the teams selected during the last EI tour, they were all pretty strong - am I missing something? What's the actual complaint?

And even if they are weaker - you could also look at the EI tour as giving more opportunities to the next tier of provincial players too. Is that a bad thing?

Clo-Clo · 11-06-2024 05:35PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122246705#Comment_122246705

If it was a European game the chances of the squad playing would be less 😂

Seriously lads, you complain the IRFU don't change things, you complain when they don't.

None of the players that went on that tour or the tour itself affected any of the provinces and how they finished up at the end of the season

All the rest of this is just noise from supporters who no matter what the IRFU do will still complain. If they do a tour next time and pick no Ulster players, you will be on crying about bias. It's a no win so IRFU should plough on

Podge_irl · 11-06-2024 05:47PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122247254#Comment_122247254

None of the players that went on that tour or the tour itself affected any of the provinces and how they finished up at the end of the season

Munster lost 5 of their first 7 matches last season and I 100% think the EI tour had a part to play in that. That they came back to win the tournament is testament to the province and coaching (and some luck) but it doesn't override the impact it had.

Playing the EI tour during a European window would in some ways make more sense, except they would never do it because of the slim possibility the provinces would need to rely on these players. But they don't care about the URC.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122247210#Comment_122247210

Is it a reasonable trade-off to weaken the provinces for a couple of URC games?

I think this is a fair question (no is my answer obviously) but I don't think it is fair to suggest they weren't weakened. Apart from anything else it creates massive disruption in the training and preparation.

I lament the loss of the full 6N A Championship, and in an ideal world that would be a better avenue but that's not something the IRFU can conjure up on their own. I think claiming it gives the next tier an opportunity is stretching to minimise the impact.

Ultimately this will always come down to squad selection. I dislike the concept but depending on who is selected the impact is variable.

Podge_irl · 11-06-2024 05:48PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122247208#Comment_122247208

Does anyone really think we'll have Snyman at the start of the URC after he inevitably plays in the RC?

Clo-Clo · 11-06-2024 05:57PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122247294#Comment_122247294

It had nothing to do with the EI tour and Munster start to the season. They also won the league so it had zero affect on Munster season

In fact you could argue the time given to Crowley at 10 propelled him into the team post the EI tour

If you lads think the EI tour is such an insult to the league, you must have been mighty upset when the B&I cup ran for years.

Oh yeah nothing was ever mentioned about that.

Podge_irl · 11-06-2024 05:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122247330#Comment_122247330

Almost like it was a completely different concept for fringe players who were not making the provincial squads to get gametime as opposed to potential members of the 23 being taken away by the Irish coaching staff to play nonsense games in South Africa. It is a completely ridiculous comparison.

phog · 11-06-2024 06:02PM

We were told last year (?) that the URC would not run during the international window, then the IRFU go ahead and plan an international match outside that window and an EI Tour to SA.

Why sign up to the agreement of URC games not clashing with International games and then go ahead and organise other games that clashes with the league.

Clo-Clo · 11-06-2024 06:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122247336#Comment_122247336

yes it ran all season and wasn’t fridge players not making the squad, it was used for academy players and players in and around the squad to get minute instead of sitting on bench

like the EI tour

The only nonsense is the reaction of a few fans who come end of season still can’t admit it made no affect to their own provinces and improved Ireland squad

Podge_irl · 11-06-2024 06:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122247351#Comment_122247351

The Provincial coaches chose who played there based on players they didn't want in their first choice teams. It could not be less relevant to an EI tour which is a top down selection approach. It is meaningless and I don't know why you are trying to conflate them.

You are fighting against arguments I am not making and casting rather broad aspersions to do so.

awec · 11-06-2024 06:09PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122247330#Comment_122247330

They also won the league so it had zero affect on Munster season

This is a completely bizarre take and not at all how impact on a season can be measured. The fact that Munster won the league does not mean that them losing players at the start of the season affected them in no way whatsoever.

phog · 11-06-2024 06:12PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122247351#Comment_122247351

There's nonsense is this post too so it's not confined to any unique set of fans

Clo-Clo · 11-06-2024 06:12PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122247374#Comment_122247374

The end of season is what counts, it didn’t affect any of the provinces

Saying it is bizarre is just because it doesn’t suit your narrative

The fact a number of players went on to represent Ireland in the World Cup was another huge bonus

Also when you consider the B&I cup ran for years yet we never had the same outcry I think we can all agree it’s just fans finding something to moan about for no reason

Clo-Clo · 11-06-2024 06:14PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122247361#Comment_122247361

So thank you, you agree the coach’s picked players that wouldn’t be part of the URC teams/squads so it had no affect on the provinces or how they ended up at close of season

Finally got to it

Podge_irl · 11-06-2024 06:16PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122247404#Comment_122247404

For the B&I cup yes. Not a single player played in the B&I cup who would have been anywhere near the 23 or backups for a provincial fixture. They were picked because they weren't in the main team that week. That could not be less relevant to the EI tour which is a completely different setup. You are making zero sense.

aloooof · 11-06-2024 06:17PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122247404#Comment_122247404

You need to go back and look at the EI squad if you think those players wouldn’t have been involved in the URC.

Frisch, Daly, Nash, Crowley, Ahern, Salanoa, Kendellen, Barron all would’ve been in Munster 23’s.

Your argument isn’t based in reality.

Former Former Former · 11-06-2024 06:18PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122247294#Comment_122247294

Munster lost 5 of their first 7 matches last season and I 100% think the EI tour had a part to play in that.

I think that's debatable, at best.

This is the Munster XV that lost to Cardiff in the opening match in 2022, in which all the EI players were available;

Shane Daly; Calvin Nash, Chris Farrell, Malakai Fekitoa, Liam Coombes; Ben Healy, Paddy Patterson; Josh Wycherley, Niall Scannell, Keynan Knox; Jean Kleyn, Fineen Wycherley; Jack O'Donoghue (C), Alex Kendellen, Jack O'Sullivan.

This is the XV that lined out against the Dragons, and lost. The Dragons' first home win in a year and a half, btw.

Mike Haley; Keith Earls, Dan Goggin, Malakai Fekitoa, Simon Zebo; Ben Healy, Craig Casey; Dave Kilcoyne, Niall Scannell, Stephen Archer, Jean Kleyn, Fineen Wycherley, Jack O'Donoghue, Peter O'Mahony (capt), Jack O'Sullivan.

So that's two defeats from two, against terrible teams, and only one of which was in any way impacted by the EI tour. I would strongly disagree that either of those Munster teams is weak.

The remaining three defeats from the opening seven games were against other Irish teams who were also subject to the EI tour, and in each of those games we saw reasonably strong Munster XVs named.

TBH, I think Munster just had a bad start to the season, which is fair enough with the departure of JVG, but the EI tour was a nice scapegoat rather than a root cause IMO.

phog · 11-06-2024 06:19PM

Not one player missed preseason because of the B&I tournament, not one player went on a tour to SA while participating in the B&I cup

Anyone trying to compare the two tournaments is stirring the pot looking for a reaction

They're light years apart in how they impact a club

Podge_irl · 11-06-2024 06:24PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122247415#Comment_122247415

The remaining three defeats from the opening seven games were against other Irish teams who were also subject to the EI tour,

As true as this may be, I think Munster were hit most given the players chosen. They could afford to lose Daly/Frisch/Nash/Crowley less than we could afford to lose Milne/McCarthy/Penny/Soroka.

It's obviously a hypothetical we can't completely answer and I partly agree that Munster simply started the season poorly. But that level of disruption simply cannot help.

I think nobody would be arguing that the tour is acceptable if it was done in the Euro window, so maybe we should start with that as a baseline for people who say "it didn't matter at all".

awec · 11-06-2024 06:35PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122247392#Comment_122247392

The end of the season doesn't exist in a bubble. The end of the season is influenced by what happens at the start of the season.

Games in September and October give you the same number of points as games in April and May.

11-06-2024 07:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122247116#Comment_122247116

Yeah, I’m not disputing the last tour was relatively disruptive to Munster and Ulster. I think the Munster squad has evolved though, and I just don’t see them as impacted this time around.

pickarooney · 11-06-2024 07:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122247116#Comment_122247116

It just adds to the story of Munster winning the title against tremendous odds. I'd be more inclined to focus on the positive. That and the emergence of Crowley and Nash as internationals.

aloooof · 11-06-2024 07:14PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122247614#Comment_122247614

Ya, look, I've never suggested there aren't any positives. But plenty have suggested there are no negatives / it makes no difference.

I just don't think that stacks up.

Neil3030 · 11-06-2024 07:21PM

Main issue for Munster at the beginning of the 2022 season was that they had just finished pre-season with a completely new coaching team, bringing in a completely different playing style, and then lost a glut of players right when it came to stress-testing it.

On this point, Munster will be a lot more steady in October and should not be impacted as badly as 2022.

It's Ulster that would be my primary concern. Could you really make the case that their (predominantly) younger players will be better off leaving Richie Murphy for three weeks? Debatable, imo.

More broadly, I'm not sure I'd call this the IRFU disrespecting the URC, necessarily. But they definitely seem to be under-appreciating the increasing competitiveness of the league. Might just be semantics there.

Home knock-out games in the URC are now emerging as viable revenue generators for provinces. On the flipside, away knockout games in South Africa could be massively costly, in terms of finances and silverware. Every point counts.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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