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Solar panels get €1,000/acre so what’s the catch?

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,832 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Bigger projects would be connecting into 110kv, which is the national grid. Medium into 38kv, 20kv and 10kv which is the localised distribution network.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭gym_imposter


    It's peculiar to me that the solar companies don't try and offer to buy the land off the farmers instead of paying well in excess of a grand per acre for decades ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,669 ✭✭✭50HX


    It's a massive capital investment to purchase land

    It will also tell you that should solar go south in the morning they can up sticks & walk away



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭gym_imposter


    True,I'm not suggesting that the purchase price should be €1000 X 35 per acre but if they offered €20 K per acre, they'd save significant on a full thirty five year term lease

    Never going to be anything more than a minority but surprised it never happens all the same



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,709 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    For them, if they bought the land, it would mean almost all their expenditure would be upfront. All that would be left would be security, maintenance and admin.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,067 ✭✭✭Dickie10


    why are they pushing to get land under solar and why is it so hard to get roof space covered and get 1,000 euro for an acre of that?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭gym_imposter




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,709 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    "why are they pushing to get land under solar" - the power companies are doing it to make money.

    "why is it so hard to get roof space covered and get 1,000 euro for an acre of that?" - there aren't many 100-acre roofs. Economies of scale are important.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭pureza


    1500 an acre widely offered now in Wicklow and Wexford by one of the large JV operations

    That's the equivalent of a minimum of €900 an acre after tax or €45k into your hand p.a index linked for 30 to 35 years

    It's a serious offering



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 224 ✭✭Kerry2021


    €1,500/acre is great money to be fair. If 6 neighbours had 60-80 acres each of poor land and if they’re only running beef cattle on it making no money then I think it’s something that they’d be right to take up. Those people would most likely already have off farm jobs that take up most of their time. I don’t think many if any dairy farmers could bear to see their land covered in solar panels and see the cows go etc



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,005 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    You actually get a lot more per acre of roof space, the difference is the costs are upfront

    Back on page 1 of the thread I worked out that €1k/acre is something like 0.2c/kWh generated

    Considering the FIT is hovering around 18-20c/kWh, that's a pretty poor slice of the investment pie

    Now I guess to answer the question of why you couldn't just rent out your roof at a fixed rate, as others have said scale is important. The installation costs on 100 houses would likely be greater than an acre of land, and you can't just connect the whole lot into the grid, it's 100 NC6 connections

    There have been companies in the US that did this, but you had to sign up to their electricity rates which often weren't great

    Rooftop solar is generally better for self consumption, and in that regard it's excellent. Speaking from experience, my bills are down from €211 per month to €24, and that's including all of my heating and driving

    But the flip side is you have to pay upfront for all the savings so there is a payback period. People go a bit mad about the payback period, and while it is important, it shouldn't discourage people

    After all homeowners don't question the expense of an extension or a new kitchen despite the fact that they never pay for themselves

    One thing that really bothers me is the measly 3-4 panels you see on new houses just to comply with the building regs. They really should be covering any roof space that isn't north facing in panels nowadays. It would make a big difference to the power consumption and energy bills of the new homeowners

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭dmakc


    around 15ac was bought near me by a solar company for €10,000/ac, company did it privately with seller so auction was cancelled. This land literally adjoining the substation in the area. No planning yet, was the seller fleeced? Just compared to some of the quotes here.

    Finest of grassland. Ideal even. Inheritance sale



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,321 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Seller was robbed. Could easily have tripled that figure. And that would be just for ag purposes.

    There's getting to be pushback in the UK on any more ag land being covered in panels. Solar companies here would know that too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 224 ✭✭Kerry2021


    Sounds like a very bad deal. My SO was telling me we aren’t too far off seeing €2,000/acre being offered for guys that lease their farms out for solar arms. At that money there’ll be a lot of them going up



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 223 ✭✭Bazzer007


    That land was bought for battery storage. Solar farms are only viable if hundreds of acres will be planted. The seller could have got 10k an acre per year. That's commercial land now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭dmakc


    10k/acre per year? Am I reading this right? How is it such a goldmine



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 223 ✭✭Bazzer007


    Energy companies are signing options with farmers for lands neighbouring substations. Most looking to lease but if they can buy for 10k per acre they'd get it back in the morning if planning wasn't granted. For the farmer, half would go on tax but still a great income at that kind of money.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,221 ✭✭✭tabby aspreme


    Has planning been given for a battery farm yet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,832 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Land next to substation could be used for battery storage but the number of acres needed would be small. Any 5Mw solar farm requiring 25 acres is viable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,005 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    In general or specifically?

    There's multiple battery farms have been installed over the past few years

    https://www.energy-storage.news/electricity-supply-board-opens-irelands-largest-battery-storage-facility-at-dublin-energy-hub/

    In terms of land, the batteries that are installed are optimised for grid balancing. So they supply a lot of power for a short time, typically 1-2 hours

    That doesn't sound like much, but remember the peak demand is from around 5-9pm, so batteries enable more of that to be covered by renewables and less from very inefficient open cycle gas turbines

    I imagine land near a substation is valued a lot higher since you can install a much larger grid connection for less costs, which suits a battery installation

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,221 ✭✭✭tabby aspreme


    Specifically on a Greenfield site, as there seemed to be more objections to battery farms than solar farms



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    They must have been desperate for money to agree to that



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,709 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    If you've read the thread, you should have realised that the economic viability of these installations is primarily down to proximity to market (direct customer or substation), not land area.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭celtic_oz


    Amazed that the Irish Government is not a bit more far sighted and place substations etc out in the west where land is poor.

    Wind resources are excelent there and the solar farms would balance calm days and take advantage of cheap land because of poor soil.

    Using the best arable land in Dublin and Meath seem to me to be a bit short sighted.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭zerosquared


    That would mean building infrastructure and power lines

    We don’t do much of the first and the later be bogged down (ha) in objections for decades

    Hell just look at the trouble building north south connection on this island



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,479 Mod ✭✭✭✭K.G.


    One thing that's rarely mentioned is the national grid and the eirgrid s ability to manage the fluctuation s.i see with our own little solar project that it's production jumps and falls dramatically during the day which i can't imagine would be easy to manage on a large scale



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,221 ✭✭✭tabby aspreme


    That's why battery storage is essential for solar to work



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,123 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Lease is opex, purchase is capex. This is the difference. Keeping it as opex is much more taxation friendly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,123 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    If your usage is 240kwh per day, with a fairly flat demand curve averaging 10kW, with a spike to 15kW during some daytime and a drop to 5kW a couple of night hours, the issue of solar fluctuation only occurs if you expect to cover a significant amount of use with solar.

    In the above example lets say your solar input on a max day is 4kW but usually 2-3kW during summer and 1-1.5kW in the winter. You never touch the actual demand, so the base generation is always running. You only run into issues if you have to start turning off and on gas (or even worse, coal fired) power stations



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,709 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Speculatively building substations is a waste of money and resources that could be better used elsewhere.

    While power plant developers have to fund their sites and connections, the wind and solar isn't taxed (constitutionally, the state owns all forms of potential power), so developers and landowner are getting a nice subsidy there.



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