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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans in OP**

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  • Registered Users Posts: 155 ✭✭Zola1000


    This is really incredible and like missing vital evidence here again..it's just so annoying.

    thanks for posting this also bjsc. These others open the story so much more.. certainly merit investigation from the cold case team..hopefully they are considering all of this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    That’s what a number of us have been saying for some time now

    All of these people who unfortunately have long passed away, should have been classed as persons of interest - not suspects by any means but certainly people who’s alibi for that night/morning should have been properly explored and documented - even Bailey before his arrest filled out a “where were you?” style questionnaire if I’m not mistaken.

    Even if the cold case team are re examining these people, they’ll have very little to go on at this stage



  • Registered Users Posts: 155 ✭✭Zola1000


    I know and i guess it's constantly going over old ground. As you say in most of cases where people are passed on we can only rely on maybe any other family members who may be able shed some light on living with them or knowing them and it's very long shot were with them and or met Sophie..but it's like most of cases.. evidence missing and now we are left with gaps , large gaps and trying piece anything together.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    I see in the Annie McCarrick case, a case over 30 years old. not only have they ditched the theory of her visiting Jonny Foxes, they were last year looking at two people who had been previously interviewed but who had provided alibi’s but are now suspects - wouldn’t it be great if something similar happened this case?



  • Registered Users Posts: 155 ✭✭Zola1000


    Yes, it's very good reference and is near similarly length of time as well to being unsolved. The theory that it throws up people who were back in city and not out in remote place and I believe had recent disagreements with her also is very substantial.

    I don't loose hope in that been a considering elements in Sophie's case...like in reading back some of posters here of the other people in the location..they certainly convey probable candidates to have known Sophie equally more than IB too.



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,234 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    The theory that it throws up people who were back in city and not out in remote place and I believe had recent disagreements with her also is very substantial.

    If I recall from the programme released last year, one "problem" that the theory poses to the initial investigation is that this theory was actually given to given to that investigation and they didn't follow up on it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    yeah something about unread faxes that the family sent 1 week after her disappearance outlining their concerns and this lead (they were based in America hence the fax)

    I have to say though it gives me some hope that the current cold case teams are certainly not afraid to change direction even after all this time - if the “Bailey” investigation is still just the “Bailey” investigation then we won’t be any closer to the truth - that case needs a completely fresh start



  • Registered Users Posts: 155 ✭✭Zola1000


    Was it said that the faxes were never received or something of that effect initially but we're subsequently found at later time and just not acted upon.?

    It certainly gives hope and that we have teams now now that can approach things with much renewed vigour. For STDP case the other possible angles whilst I know so much time has passed we can only hope they have to look at them angles now..as there is nothing new..nothing new on IB or anyone else . Focus has to be fresh look, fresh appeal get information and go through all original suspect statements and recover hopefully new lines.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12 senga_60


    As well as Sophie’s DNA found in her home by the crime scene folks there was DNA from three of the Hellen’s family if what I have read is true. Could you, by your files confirm any mention of this and if so re Hellen’s family DNA, does the file say where the DNA of each individual was from within the house ie surface top, tap, bottle et etc.

    Many thanks.



  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭bjsc


    There is certainly no mention in the files that I have of any DNA being recovered from the house. The place was fingerprinted and some of the lifts were eliminated to members of the Hellen family but absolutely nothing a out DNA.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12 senga_60




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,654 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    ..”ie surface top, tap, bottle et etc.”

    Bath?



  • Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭jesuisjuste


    @bjsc I believe there were other "unidentified" fingermarks also inside the house, that they couldn't necessarily tie to anyone (including Sophie). Is there any description of where these marks were located? I believe that the gardai ultimately came to the conclusion that no one had entered the house during the course of the encounter (before, during or after). I can only assume that they did not pick up any footprints in the house, or how else could they come to that conclusion, is there anything in the files related to this?



  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭bjsc


    There were unidentified fingerprints but no record of where they were found nor who they were checked against.

    There is also no record of any attempt being made to recover footprints from the house which, given that the floors were stone (an ideal surface), would seem to me to be an obvious line of enquiry.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,296 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    I thought you didn't have access to the case file ?

    Just wondering how you'd know this?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,641 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    There was a smear of blood on the outside of the back door, as if someone with a trace of blood on their sleeve had pushed or pulled it to open or shut. Seems likely that this was the killer since there is NO trace of blood anywhere else near, or in, the house. They probably would have left traces, given the savagery of the attack.

    If the attacker had been in the house before the murder, how did the scene of the assault move to the opened gate on the lane?

    It is still possible that they were known to Sophie - a friend or aquaintance? And may have visited her there on a previous occasion. Actually this is more likely than a random attack by a complete stranger, since the location was so remote. So really every single fingerprint of every person that was EVER in that house ought to have been identified if at all possible.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,296 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Whether true or not the garda theory is that the first encounter was at the house and she ran in fear

    If the axe is indeed missing this seems the most plausible explanation

    I cannot envisage her walking to gate with an axe for the initial confrontation



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,654 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    My theory on the blood smear on the back door.

    When Shirley came back up and told Alfie what she saw, Alfie went straight down to check, and as most people would do in the situation, he checked for signs of life. He got close enough to get blood on his glove and transferred a smear onto the back door when he went back up to check Sophie's house. When he called the Gardaí he was told not to go near the body and his story was then that he went no nearer than within 20 yards of the body. Yet he was able to convey to the operator that she was dead and there was no mention of calling for medical help. Just my take on it, as likely as the attacker going back to the house I feel.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,234 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    On that basis, might there be photos of the clothes Alfie was wearing to show the blood that managed to get onto him?

    I don't believe there is plus I'm not convinced that he got close enough to get enough blood onto his clothes that would coincidentally find itself onto Sophies back door.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,654 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Not clothes as such, just one glove, easily burnt in the fire that Shirley had lit. Plenty time to do do it between calling the Gardai and them arriving. There’s no coincidence as Alfie stated he went back to the house to check on Sophie.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,731 ✭✭✭dmc17


    If he went near the body to check he surely wouldn't pretend he didn't go near it and then risk having his dna discovered on it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 837 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    That's possible, but if he got close enough to Sophie to get blood on his glove - or sleeve-or hand - then he was close enough to recognise her and if he recognised her then he would'nt have any reason to check on her at the house?



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,615 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    It was 1996 they wouldnt have been looking for DNA as in skin cells like these days. Back then it was fingerprints, saliva, blood etc

    I dont find Alfies description credible ... why stop at 20 yards. It might have been a white lie to cover innocently getting close to the body to check on it but it never rang true to me.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,731 ✭✭✭dmc17


    It is a bit strange but why would you pretend you didn't go near the body if you did go check on it? That would surely be a better story if your dna was discovered?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,654 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Yes, that’s the difficult bit, but I’m thinking he either made the decision that his dna and finger marks would be around the area anyway ,or maybe he just hoped for the best and got lucky.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,641 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    Indeed, if Alfie had really gone that close to the body of the deceased, he might have been the one to have left the unidentified footprint. He would have had to have owned up. A kindly act - to check for signs of life - the neighbour lady who was known to him - etc.

    Moreover, he wouldn't have pulled the door shut — knowing that it was now a crime scene.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,654 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    If Alfie’s was the only dna discovered on the body, it would be game over.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,654 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    “Moreover, he wouldn't have pulled the door shut — knowing that it was now a crime scene”

    Maybe the door was already locked closed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,641 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    It certainly would!

    A neighbour who knew Sophie - and had had disputes with her - over access, and noise - not to mention clandestine use of her house when vacant; plus, a regular user of the lane and the gate - and his DNA (or any clue) found on or near the body or the house - game, set and match.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 837 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    Not necessarily…..Alfie may have had some innocent, casual contact with Sophie. eg. helping her carry luggage from the car or something like that.



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