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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans lifted - see OP**

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,017 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    If you are aware of any evidence that this was a sexually motivated assault, I would be interested to hear of it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    You agree it was a frenzied attack

    There was no forensics of Bailey or AN other found either

    Therefore you agree with me that the DPP was wrong his assumption


    Do you follow ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,017 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    No, I do not. And what you are saying is incorrect.

    There was plently of forensic evidence. Just none of it linked to Bailey.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,950 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    You either haven't read the report in full or haven't read it with understanding.

    It is the Garda case it was a frenzied attack and Bailey was scratched at the scene. The DPP is rejecting it (the part in bold) because there was no sign of Bailey being scratched at the scene.

    Yet you somehow try to twist that as a criticism of the DPP!

    It's not the DPP's theory. It is pointing out the contradictions in the Garda scenario tying Bailey to the scene.

    If in fact the attack was carried out in a frenzied manner one might have expected that the assailant would have left traces of blood, skin, clothing fibres or hair at the scene. No such material was discovered.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,950 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    "Nonsense from the DPP"

    Nope.

    There no evidence of any sexual element to the attack. None.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    No idea what point you're making

    She was battered to death with a concrete block

    Yes I believe it was frenzied . Even Gussie agrees with me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 163 ✭✭easy peasy


    I'm not sure that's true. I've gone down to West Cork regularly for over 25 years and I have heard the story about the Bantry Garda since very early on.

    This is also the predominant view of people I have spoken to in Bantry which tells you a lot about that particular Garda.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,017 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    Careful now Tom.

    I agree that it was a frenzied attack.

    I do not agree with your view on the DPP analysis.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,950 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    The point about the DPP report is that the Garda case is that it was a frenzied attack, and that Bailey was scratched at the scene, and that Bailey went up there with a sexual motive. That is the case the DPP is critiquing \ assessing.

    The DPP rightly points out if Bailey is supposed to have carried out the attack in a frenzied manner, and scratched at the scene - yet there is zero forensics tying him to the scene. Not on Sophie. Not on the briars. It doesn't add up.

    Similarly the DPP rightly points out there was zero evidence of a sexual element to the attack.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    ? From the report.. No forensics he says ..


    "If in fact the attack was carried

    out in a frenzied manner one might have expected that the assailant would have left

    traces of blood, skin, clothing fibres or hair at the scene. No such material was

    discovered."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,017 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    No Tom. They didn't say that.

    No forensic evidence linking Ian Bailey to the scene was found despite the fact that the murder of Sophie Toscan Du Plantier was the direct result of an apparently frenzied and furious attack upon her in a briar-strewn location. If in fact the attack was carried out in a frenzied manner one might have expected that the assailant would have left traces of blood, skin, clothing fibres or hair at the scene. No such material was discovered.

    I thnk your misinterpreting the text.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Don't think so

    Last sentence says assailant . I don't believe that's Bailey specifically

    Could be wrong

    So was there blood skin clothing hair found at scene ?

    I don't think so



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,325 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    On the West Cork podcast Bailey produces a letter that was sent to him suggesting it was a Bantry Garda.

    The letter writer goes on to say that if Bailey wants more information then he would have to "make it worth his time"

    So from that I am concluding that the Bantry Garda story is coming from none other than Ian Bailey.

    If you have been hearing about it in west Cork then it's probably because Bailey has been spreading it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,017 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    OK, I see what you mean now. The way the sentence is structured could lend itself to that interpretation.

    However, I don't believe that anyone could dispute that the attack was frenzied.

    And the point they are making is clear. Essentially, had Bailey been involved, there would be forensic evidence to support the contention.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    We're going round in circles

    I was underwhelmed anyway with my cursory reading of his report . I'll leave it there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,017 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    No, the Bantry Garda theory, ( for which there is absolutely no evidence ) did not originate with Bailey.

    That particualar rumour was circulating at a very early stage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,950 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    If you read the full section in context it is clearer imo:

    The Gardaí suggest that Ian Bailey is the murderer and was scratched on his hands and arms by the briars during the struggle.

    No forensic evidence linking Ian Bailey to the scene was found despite the fact that the murder of Sophie Toscan Du Plantier was the direct result of an apparently frenzied and furious attack upon her in a briar-strewn location. If in fact the attack was carried out in a frenzied manner one might have expected that the assailant would have left traces of blood, skin, clothing fibres or hair at the scene. No such material was discovered.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,017 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    Right, yes I see it.

    Its specific to the scratches....ie. if Bailey's hands were scratched as a result of him attacking Sophie in a briar strewn location, then there would be forensic traces present. No such traces were found and therefore we reject the assertion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    "If in fact the attack was carried out in a frenzied manner one might have expected that the assailant would have left traces of blood, skin, clothing fibres or hair at the scene. No such material was discovered."


    Suggests to me no such material from any person was discovered at the scene . I believe this to be the case .

    Gusset and me and others I'm sure agree that the attack was frenzied

    That would suggest DPP is mistaken if as I believe no such evidential material was discovered

    Can anyone contradict on the evidential material from anyone being discovered at scene

    If not my point is correct



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,950 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Answer my point

    Was the above evidential material collected from the scene ?

    Doesn't matter whether it's from Bailey or ANother

    If not the dpp is wrong



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,950 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    It does matter, because it is the contention that Bailey was scratched at the scene.

    Read the report.

    The Gardaí suggest that Ian Bailey is the murderer and was scratched on his hands and arms by the briars during the struggle.

    The above evidential matter indicating that Bailey was scratched at the scene was not collected at the scene.

    Therefore the DPP is not wrong, they are pointing out a lack of evidence to support the Garda suggestion.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,017 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    No, Odysse's interpretation is correct.

    If you read it in the full contex, the DPP are refuting the Garda claim that the scratches were a result of Bailey attacking Sophie in the briars.

    The briars were taken away and forensically examined in the UK and no forensic material was recovered.

    Had the scratches been caused by the briars, then there would have been forensic traces left.

    And because there wasn't, the arssertion is rejected.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    That's oddysey again arguing some point I'm not even making

    The DPP asserts that if bailey committed a frenzied attack there would be Baileys forensic material lifted from scene

    Therefore it follows that if ANother committed a frenzied attack there would be ANothers material lifted from scene

    Assuming there wasn't then it follows DPP is saying it wasn't a frenzied attack

    I believe he's clearly wrong to assert this



    "No forensic evidence linking Ian Bailey to the scene was found despite the fact that the


    murder of Sophie Toscan Du Plantier was the direct result of an apparently frenzied


    and furious attack upon her in a briar-strewn location. If in fact the attack was carried


    out in a frenzied manner one might have expected that the assailant would have left


    traces of blood, skin, clothing fibres or hair at the scene. No such material was discovered "



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,950 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    It is clearly wrong cherry picking a paragraph out of the section in the report, and leaving this out:

    The Gardaí suggest that Ian Bailey is the murderer and was scratched on his hands and arms by the briars during the struggle.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 163 ✭✭easy peasy


    The report is titled - "ANALYSIS OF THE EVIDENCE TO LINK IAN BAILEY TO THE SOPHIE TOSCAN DU PLANTIER MURDER"

    The entire purpose of the report is an analysis of and if warranted, rebuttal of, the evidence presented by the Gardai against IAN BAILEY and whether a prosecution is warranted.

    You have to read the report in such a manner that Bailey is the "assailant".

    We also know that there was DNA of ANother on Sophie's boot so your point doesn't really stand up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    You're arguing that ANother left DNA at the crime scene therefore it was a frenzied attack by ANother

    So the DPP is wrong or which is it ?

    Posters can't have it everyway and it's simply wrong to state that a paragraph of a report can't be analysed without looking at the totality of the report



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 163 ✭✭easy peasy


    This is probably the fourth time that I’ve been convinced you’re on a wind up.

    I’ll bite for the last time. What the DPP is saying is that if, as asserted by the Gardai, there was a frenzied attack by Ian Bailey then Ian Bailey’s DNA should have been at the crime scene. The other person is not relevant to this report.



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 43,070 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    You are deliberately choosing to misinterpret the context of the paragraph when there really is no ambiguity to it when you read the entire excerpt in context.

    In fact, your entire approach to this case is biased andnpossibly reflects rhe approach used by AGS. When it comes to Bailey, you are looking at this from a "Bailey did it" angle and expect the burden of proof to prove his innocence and when it comes to everyone else you assume (rightfully) innocence and expect the burden of proof (possibly at a higher level) to prove their involvement. Therefore it comes as no surprise that you remain convinced that Bailey is responsible.

    You are unable to take a step back and look at the details available objectively. Even when the DPP does this you try and find flaws to suit the "Bailey did it" narrative.



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