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What does the future hold for Donald Trump? - threadbans in OP

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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,725 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    And importantly - under oath , which carries the risk of perjury charges and potentially a prison sentence.

    Unlike all of the denials and obfuscation from Trump and his mouthpieces.

    As yet not a single one of them has gone under oath to refute a single thing said about what happened on that day - Not one.

    Why might that be I wonder?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,197 ✭✭✭amandstu


    The source for the metal detector /let them through /they will not hurt me - claim was in Hutchison's testimony on oath to the Jan 6 committee

    https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/trump-armed-supporters-jan-6-capitol-attack-1375529/ and many other news outlets.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,806 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Agree. The Americans are far too fond of the Framers' intent when crafting and even those of generations later when amending the Constitution. As an 18th-century effort to provide the scope and extent of Government vs State & Individual rights? The US Constitution is a noble effort. It is also very much of its time, and whilst jurists struggle to reason out the "framers intent"? They ignore that those intentions were shaped in an 18th-century world.

    Constitutions are a great tool; they must be living documents. Subject to amendment to meet the needs and mores of new generations, the bar for changing a constitution should be high, but I do feel in the US? The bar is too high, and the difficulty in attempting a change that doesn't directly serve members of Congress' interests ensures no real effort at such a change has been made in over 50 years. Even the most recent amendment, in 1991, resulted from 202 years of limbo.

    Imagine if we held the articles of the Bunreacht as sacrosanct. No Divorce, no marriage equality, Articles 2 & 3 persisting and blocking the GFA's settlement, the entry into the EEC and the further referenda on constitutional change for the EU treaties, Abortion rights, Nationality and other issues that were amended by way of referenda.

    Those changes reflect an Irish realisation that our Constitution is broadly a good document. It can always be better, or at the very least, if not "better", that it can be amended to be more reflective of our society its needs and be reframed accordingly.

    The US and its reverence for the original document is IMHO very much at odds with the framer's original intention for the Constitution to be a broad strokes document with review and amendment as the need arose. Indeed, in the 1st 25yrs of the US Constitution, whilst the framers were still framing ;) It was amended 12 times (13 if you count the 27th which passed in 1991, after being proposed in 1789). Almost half of the 27 amendments to the constitution, occurred in its 1st 25yrs. with 13(14 counting the 27th) in the intervening 220 years. No Constitution is so perfect that it never needs changing. The Yanks see that as anathema though and, I do think that the seditious efforts of Trump & Co demand at least the revisiting of the processes and laws that he almost subverted.

    It of course, wont happen but, its an area of jurisprudence I have great interest in, despite my having no dog in the fight other than wanting to see a stable and secure US.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,043 ✭✭✭bog master


    Let us not forget in the 14th Amendment ........"or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof." Not admonishing their actions yet rather applauding and calling them patriots I love you, and with pronouncements he would pardon them would seem to me is giving aid and comfort.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,016 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Not to forget the wisdom that every villain is the hero of their own story. That doesn't mean they're not still a villain.

    Why should Trump have his intent so considered when murderers rarely get to say they genuinely thought they were doing the world a favour by slaying their victim and have that claim be treated seriously. The only instance where the latter is given real consideration is when said murderer is pleading insanity.

    If Trump uses intent to justify heinous actions, despite little credible evidence for and much against, is he then basically admitting a delusional mindset or even an insane one? I mean... he probably could do that and not have it particularly hurt his numbers since about half of America's likely voters are right there with him.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,329 ✭✭✭✭2smiggy


    death, very soon hopefully



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,725 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    I have no issue per se with the concept of "originalism/textualism" , that's ok in and of itself.

    It's perfectly fine to hold the view that says - "The words mean this , if you want them to mean something different then change the words"

    BUT - If that's the position then the process to change the words has to be straight-forward , functional and democratic.

    In Ireland , if we want to change the constitution, someone makes a suggestion, it gets reviewed and if considered viable it's put to a vote by the people and a simple majority makes the change.

    If we don't like it we can change it back just as easily so "Irish Constitutional originalism" wouldn't be a problem at all.

    The problem is that the process to change the US Constitution is so incredibly complex ,convoluted and politically tainted that a determined minority of a minority of the population can block any changes, making large swathes of the US Constitution utterly unfit for modern use.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,016 ✭✭✭✭briany


    If lawyers representing Trump are going to argue for a narrow scope of what the text in question means, they're probably going to be looking for supporting historical documents to back that up like letters and minutes of debates and so on. If they're going to argue an originalist position, they're going to need to establish what was originally meant when the text was written.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,048 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    In all the cases so far, Trump has singularly failed to put forward any credible evidence of any of his positions.

    He spouts whatever rubbish he thinks will work to get him off the hook, it is magnified by the media and by his supporters to a level where one could be forgiven to actually think it is credible, but when faced with actual legal process the entire facade disappears.

    No position Trump has in terms of his legal position should be given any credibility until he can actually demonstrate it in a court.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭TinyMuffin


    Poor trump is All Shook Up with people with Suspicious Minds trying to get him into a Jailhouse Rock.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,545 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    It's all about delaying things long enough for him to become President again. It's the only hope he has of squashing all or most of the cases against him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,016 ✭✭✭✭briany


    America is a country where you'll have a tough time applying for menial jobs with a criminal conviction and your voting rights are stripped, but you can still run for president.

    So, I don't even think that a conviction would even hurt Trump that much. He'll probably never see the inside of a jail cell, number one, or if he did he'd probably get a whole wing to himself, and he could still run for president. He'd be the far-right Nelson Mandela. The problem is that America is has become so polarised that not even a full sweep on possible convictions against him will be seen as an innate disqualifier, but rather as an attempt by 'the deep state' to silence him. Once it gets to that point, you cannot rely on process to save things since a massive amount of Americans will not abide by it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,394 ✭✭✭PropJoe10


    There's no way he'd be running again if the threat of prison time wasn't hanging over him. He (probably correctly) believes that the Presidency can be used as a nice shield against his indictments. It's why it's so important for at least one of these cases to go to trial before the election. Having him take office again and the cases against him disappear would be catastrophic for the rule of law.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 29,537 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I think you're underestimating how much he enjoys the ego massaging that running for, and being president results in.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    even if he lost and got convicted he'd tease running in 2028 just to keep sending out fundraising emails



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,394 ✭✭✭PropJoe10


    Possibly, but considering he's lost in every election since 2016 you'd think he'd have gotten tired of losing by now. Apparently not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Trump's opponent, Nancy Pelosi, lost the Nevada Primary to 'none of these candidates'

    image.png




  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,725 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    To be fair , the Nevada GOP have played silly buggers there big time.

    The "Primary" doesn't carry any delegate votes only the Caucus vote tomorrow does - only Trump is on the Caucus vote , Haley( or anyone else) wasn't allowed.

    So the vote today served absolutely no purpose and no matter what happened Haley couldn't win any delegates.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,581 ✭✭✭✭~Rebel~


    In a way, that nearly sums up the entire election picture this year. You'd just want everyone to go away, think about what they've done, and come back with better options.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,612 ✭✭✭Rawr


    Oh we would definitely continue. Not just for the fundraising grift (which I suspect he’ll become increasingly dependent on over time), but also because this is his whole “bit” now.

    He used to be an 80’s property magnate…but then that went to hell when the harsh light of reality showed the world how thick he was.

    He used to be a reality TV character that gleaned some renewed fame for himself, but those days well and truly over thanks to his current “bit”.

    Which is: Hard done by Ex-President / Rightful President who was cheated / Presidential hopeful. The second he gives up on running (or worse: endorses someone else) it’s all over. He’ll be an old has-been with maybe the most unhinged of the MAGA loons sticking with him.

    Once it’s no longer possible for him to be their President / Dictator/ King, I suspect many of the MAGA crowd will move on. He’s only useful to them if he can present a possibility where their brand of stupid can be stapled across the face of the US. If Trump can’t do that anymore it over for him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,016 ✭✭✭✭briany


    @Rawr

    Once it’s no longer possible for him to be their President / Dictator/ King, I suspect many of the MAGA crowd will move on. He’s only useful to them if he can present a possibility where their brand of stupid can be stapled across the face of the US. If Trump can’t do that anymore it over for him.

    Disagree. I would agree, though, if there were another individual as caustic as Trump, but there isn't. There are a few tribute acts floating around, but their similarities are either partial or just a vestige, a personality that they don. Yeah, the Trump base would dearly want him to president, but his great value is as an agitator and disrupter. The base will not move on from unless their is a major cultural change among them or they find someone who is just as odious and charismatic as he is. They've already shown strong loyalty to him through a failed reelection bid and a midterm where his endorsements got beaten. That loyalty is not based on pragmatism, but primal feeling.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    He used to be an 80’s property magnate…but then that went to hell when the harsh light of reality showed the world how thick he was.

    Was he even that? A magnate I mean? Cos my understanding is he inherited his portfolio from daddy simply earned wealth without ever "earning" it, his actual ventures often complete failures.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,394 ✭✭✭PropJoe10


    I thought this WP analysis was quite interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gCYNaQQ3Bw

    It backed up the fact that Trump's numbers in both Iowa and New Hampshire were quite low, considering he's basically running as an incumbent (being a former President). He's not attracting "on the fence" Republicans or Independents - obviously a fair portion of people that voted for Haley will just row in behind whoever the nominee is. However, not all of them will, which would likely be his undoing in a general election.

    It's just amusing to me that the GOP are intent on choosing a candidate that probably can't win (Trump) over a candidate that probably would win in a general election (Haley). It makes no sense at all. They're happier having Trump as their leader than they are actually winning.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,030 ✭✭✭✭everlast75


    And all because Citizen Trump demanded it...

    Elect a clown... Expect a circus



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,612 ✭✭✭Rawr


    I guess by that I meant the public persona he tried to project, which eventually went to hell when he showed people how stupid he was with money.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,197 ✭✭✭amandstu


    Maybe someone could propose a motion in the House allocating military and financial aid to Russia?

    And they might give a subvention to the Russian electoral committee while they are at it.

    It would be less hypocritical than just blocking Ukraine's lifeline.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Ah yes then true: Trump did indeed cultivate a successful mirage of wealth; the 90s and his Hollywood cameo days to The Apprentice. Maybe if Trump stopped there, and didn't get obsessed about Obama's birth certificate he'd now be ... ... well whatever passes for "happy" in Donald Trump's rotting brain, enjoying his septuagenarian years without problem.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,950 ✭✭✭Hande hoche!


    It's completely mad on their part. Biden is a very weak candidate. So they are going to nominate the man who has lost to him in the past and will very likely lose again. They are throwing away a very winnable election. They could have had the first woman president, Asian American president or both. Instead a re-run of 2020.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,685 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    They could have had the first woman president, Asian American president or both.

    I don't think any Republicans would consider that a win!



This discussion has been closed.
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