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Enoch Burke is The Prisoner

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 31,142 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    We have now gone completely off topic from Enoch Burke, but at the same time, if you cannot see how pathetic that argument is in respect of National School - NATIONAL being the important word - then there is not a lot of chance of equality of belief/non belief. If you are referring to a private Catholic school then fair enough, no argument.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,739 ✭✭✭Quitelife


    Im talking about either a secondary or primary school , seems to be quite a few non religion secondary schools around . If the Catholic Church own the schools surely their entitled to have some form of a Catholic ethos in that school, most people where i live dont seem to have any issue with it.

    If i was planning to be a teacher and didnt like Catholics id move to where there are Protestant or Non Religion schools or else dont bother teaching if its that big an issue for a person. My broher lives in Birmingham and his children go to a catholic school and never heard of teachers there not wanting to teach there. Maybe theres more protestant & Muslim schools in Birmingham than here for non catholics to teach in .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭scottser



    To quote from the third of your articles:

    Section 37 of the Employment Equality Act provides for an exception to the general prohibition on discrimination on religious grounds. The exception allows a religious, education or medical institution to treat an employee more favourably than another employee, where it is reasonable to do so in order to maintain the religious ethos of the institution, or where it takes action which is reasonably necessary to prevent an employee or a prospective employee from undermining the religious ethos of the institution.

    The Court held that this section should be “ascribed a narrow orbit and it can only avail an employer where the conditions in which it is expressed to operate actually apply.” The Court held that the school “did not adduce any evidence on which it could be held that the canvassing of the private views of candidates for the post in issue on the question of religious patronage and pluralism was reasonable or necessary in order to maintain the religious ethos of the school”. The Court also found that there was no evidence to suggest that “whatever views the Complainant had on that topic would impact on her capacity to act in good faith and with loyalty to the school.”

    The article you posted outlining the Labour Court's position disproves your point completely.

    Thanks Renko - your investigative skills were always a bit lacking but hey, let's be careful out there.. :P



  • Posts: 7,522 ✭✭✭ Magnolia Hissing Youth


    You’re basing yours on one school Andrew?

    im basing it on a teacher who’s interviewed with 5-6 schools at this stage.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Congrats on your cut/paste ability, but regardless of how many times you repeat things, it doesn't make them true.

    Teachers having to lie their way through interviews in religious schools is not a novel concept.

    Candidates literally were graded on their faith in the school that I was involved with. That's literally what happened, with the Chairperson reporting to the Board as to which candidates were seen as 'a good Catholic' (that's a literal quote from the Chairperson at the time.


    You seem a bit confused between the outcome of one particular case and the actual status of legislation, which is crystal clear.

    For every case that comes to the Labour Court or WRC, there's a hundred cases that don't, from candidates who choose to keep their heads down and not make a fuss.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    How many Board of Management meetings did your teacher attend?



  • Posts: 7,522 ✭✭✭ Magnolia Hissing Youth


    If you want your children to learn about catholic religion why don’t you do that in your own time instead of expecting the school to do it?



  • Posts: 7,522 ✭✭✭ Magnolia Hissing Youth


    how many schools BOM’s have you been on? Because if it’s just one then I’m really done talking to you since you’ve decided to not touch on the irony of your previous argument.

    why is it not okay for me to use one teacher as an example but you’re free to use one school? If you can’t be arsed to elaborate on that then just leave me be because I’m not arguing in circles with you, especially when you are wrong.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Do you really NOT know the answer to that question...??

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,419 ✭✭✭hoodie6029


    The demographics are changing quickly (less and less catholics) but the Church ownsmost of the schools still. Something has got to give eventually. Aged nuns and priests interviewing people who are pretending to be religious to get a job. The last time they were in a Church was probably their confirmation, if even.

    It’s a charade

    This is water. Inspiring speech by David Foster Wallace https://youtu.be/DCbGM4mqEVw?si=GS5uDvegp6Er1EOG



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I've been on two school BoMs, one a religious school, and later a non-religious school, after I had 'seen the light' as they say.

    A teacher who has never sat in a BoM meeting has only seen one side of the coin, and has no idea about the actual decision making process behind the scenes.

    You introduced the 'how many' question, which was fairly irrelevant. It's not about how many schools or how many teachers. It's about the legislation, the culture, the practices. I've given my specific experiences, and presented media and academic reports showing that others have similar experiences.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭scottser


    well buddy, you posted it to back up your point and it's clear that you're wrong. on many levels.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,203 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Teachers having to lie their way through interviews in religious schools is not a novel concept.

    It is, when they don’t actually have to lie. The fact that some candidates DO lie however, is not a novel concept, and certainly not restricted to the realm of employment in education. I’m sure we can agree that we’ve both been privy to instances of candidates embellishing their answers in interviews regardless of the employer or the role they were interviewing for?


    Candidates literally were graded on their faith in the school that I was involved with. That's literally what happened, with the Chairperson reporting to the Board as to which candidates were seen as 'a good Catholic' (that's a literal quote from the Chairperson at the time.

    And like I said, I don’t doubt your claims of something which you were privy to. Where we’re running into an issue is at the point where you claim that what you experienced is generally applicable even to primary schools. It’s not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,203 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Because that’s what the school is established to do, so it stands to reason it would be expected that they do that.

    Parents aren’t obligated to choose between one or the other, and the fact that there is a shortage of schools of their particular preference is the responsibility of Government, not the Patrons of any particular organisation which provides education, and certainly not the responsibility of other parents.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Go back and read the case details. We have a nun, chairing an interview board, asking candidates about their views on matters that don't have the vaguest relationship with their ability to teach faith formation. This is what happens in the real world.

    There's a big difference between embellishing a role on a particular project and having to lie about a fundamental human value or belief. They're not in the same ballpark.

    I don't suppose you have any source for your claim that what I experienced is not generally applicable even to primary schools?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    2022 census said 68% were Catholic, and you could be damn sure many if not most wouldn't be practising. Like myself, probably were last at mass by intent decades ago. anecdotally but churches look half full, and mostly by grey heads.

    The majority of the country's schools being owned by the Catholic Church was a convenience when the state had neither funds nor nous to run out education; a much different world now. A much more diverse world at that, these catholic schools can't be the tails wagging the dog.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,119 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    id wonder where the church got the lands in the first place, I doubt too much was bought at a fair price with honestly earned money.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,937 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    There are very, very few members of the clergy involved in Boards of Management. They are a dying breed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,937 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    I have interviewed hundreds of teachers. I have never sat on an interview panel where a candidate has been asked about their own personal faith, never mind being "marked" on it.

    However you clearly know best because you were once on a BOM.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,203 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    I don't suppose you have any source for your claim that what I experienced is not generally applicable even to primary schools?


    Would I lie to you Andrew? 😁



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Churches half full? They wish they were anything near to half full.



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    'If i was planning to be a teacher and didnt like Catholics '

    🙄😂



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Panels for religious primary schools?

    Do you think that it's possible that different schools do things differently?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,937 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    No. Different schools cannot do things differently. There is a process that all schools must follow. Failure to follow the correct procedures will lead to an appearance in front of the WRC for the BOM.

    One guaranteed way to cost the BOM a five figure sum would be to ask a candidate about their personal faith.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,203 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    I don’t, and I don’t see what that has to do with anything either when your claim amounts to the notion that religious ethos schools engage in unlawful discrimination as standard practice. That anyone feels they have to lie is not the same thing as the idea that an employer requires anyone to lie, about anything.

    The idea that candidates are required to adhere to their employer’s policies is not a new concept either, it’s just one that Enoch appears to have imagined didn’t apply to him, pretty much the same as the interviewees for that article you provided who felt they had to lie - they are not required by their employer to do so, and they are not prohibited from being considered for employment or promotion on the basis of their religious beliefs or lack thereof, because in spite of what you’ve been led to believe about the other 3,000 religious ethos schools in Ireland to which your claim applies, assessing candidates based on their religious beliefs is not standard practice.

    It’s easy for most people at least, to keep their private thoughts to themselves. ‘Relatively easy’ according to one atheist who was Principal of a Catholic school for 20 years. Came a cropper when he decided to express his private thoughts in public, as though there shouldn’t be any consequences for his behaviour from his employer:

    To date, the divesting rate is negligible. I wrote about this last year, and a few days later I received an email from the diocese of Cloyne informing me that I was no longer on the panel of independent assessors for interview selection boards.

    When I enquired as to why, I was informed that my “public stance on church/school matters is not compatible with you sitting on selection boards for the appointment of teachers in schools under Catholic patronage”.

    Rather than engage with any points raised in my writing, the bishop exercised his right to shoot the naysayer.

    https://archive.ph/G6qOH



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Employers can ask about anything they like during interviews - sexuality, family, religion, whatever. There's no legal bar on asking questions.

    The legal issue arises if the employee can prove discrimination on one of the grounds set out in the Employment Equality Acts.

    However, the generally good advice to employers is to avoid asking questions which could open up the possibility of being accused of discrimination, so smart employers will avoid asking such questions.

    In the case of religious schools, they have a specific exemption to discrimination on religious grounds, as you can from the legislation I referred to above.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Except that it's not unlawful discrimination, given the exemption to discrimination legislation that I referenced above.

    How can you speak about what happens in all schools, when you've really no idea what goes on in practice?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,937 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    You are attempting to speak on behalf of all schools.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,710 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    A court ruling is more relevant than simply quoting legislation.

    I would put some consideration to the idea that the school you were on the BOM of were simply engaged in illegal behaviour. I do not doubt that such illegal behaviour is not unique but it is still illegal.



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