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Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 682 ✭✭✭Fr D Maugire


    No, its called giving context and background to issues rather than trying to provide a lopsided view on history as many seem to be trying to do so. The issues around Israel/Palestine started long before 1947, all the UN resolution did was solidify the issues that had already been created. The UN are an organisation, they do not get every decision correct. Clearly after WW2, there was a huge amount of guilt over the fate of the Jewish population of Europe, but making decisions based on emotions are not always the most logical. But of course there was a large amount of politicking going on in the UN as well at the time. The Soviets thought that Israel might become a socialist state as some of the communes that had been formed in Israel where on a collective basis, the Soviets also wanted to sow discord between the British and their traditional Arab allies so they saw the creation of Israel as a means to do so. Of course they used their influence on all the satellite Soviet countries to also vote in the same manner. Lets not forget, not a single Middle-Eastern Country supported the resolution.

    Good of you also to at least recognise that Israel is similar to the US, Australia etc in how they were created. I think it is widely recognised nowadays that the people who lived in those places before colonialism got screwed over. Peoples who lose their lands or their rights tend to put up a resistance. That is not a justification, it is just reality. Fact is all these issue were foreseen in the King-Crane commission of 1919 as noted. Poor decisions were made on top of poor decisions and the people of the region have been paying the price ever since.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Sure there were no Irish people before 1921 either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,661 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    By not accepting the decision, the locals sealed their fate. Sorry you're unhappy about it, and your judging the decisions as poor is subjective, not objective.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 682 ✭✭✭Fr D Maugire


    So, by not accepting colonialism and being pushed of their lands, locals deserved the fate they received. Got it.

    I think the fact this is going on a 100 years later would back the opinion that poor decisions were made.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,694 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Well this shows the level of your knowledge. If there were no Irish people before 1921, would the Duke of Wellington have felt the need to say he wasn't Irish using the logic that "Being born in a stable does not make one a horse"?

    How could the Irish Republican Brotherhood have been created in 1858, if there was no concept of being Irish before 1921?

    Whereas right up until the late 20th century, many Palestinians were opposed to the idea that they were "less than" "Pan Arabs". They wanted a replacement for the Ottoman empire, not a much smaller and less powerful state called Palestine.

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 682 ✭✭✭Fr D Maugire


    There was a region in the Ottoman Empire known as Palestine, the people who lived there were known as Palestinians. Primarily Arabs. During WW1 the British promised the Arabs a pan-Arab state which the Arabs thought would include modern day Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Paelestine, Jordan and the Western strip of Saudi Arabia, the areas in which they lived. Of course the British reneged on that promise, and along with the French split the region into the various mandates which has led to so much conflict since.

    The whole mantra post WW1 was the right of self-determination for ethnic groups/nationalities, except that right was very much at the whim of the Great Powers. Never at any point were the people who lived in what became Palestine given the right to self-determination. Everything was foisted on to them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,324 ✭✭✭blackcard


    The 1947 UN decision was a truly shocking decision. Jews owned 7% of the land but the newly formed Israel was granted 56% of the territory. It was a land grab aided by bribery, economic threats and expedited by Jewish terrorism against the British. It was predictable that the Arabs would fight for land that was rightfully theirs



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,661 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Repeatedly instigating and losing wars sacrificing your own people, committing acts of terrorism, well, yeah, you're making poor decisions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,661 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    I forget which account natters on about the 56% business (and again, Jews were 1/3 the population of Palestine), but most of that land was in the Negev desert. I am certain had the Arabs offered, say, Gaza instead of the Negev, confining themselves to the Negev, the Israelis would've been quite happy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 682 ✭✭✭Fr D Maugire


    Did the native Americans play stupid games when they tried to resist settlers taking their land? You seem very keen on justifying colonialism?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,208 ✭✭✭amandstu




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 682 ✭✭✭Fr D Maugire


    You seem very keen on ignoring anything that's shows the people of Palestine were ignored and generally screwed over in the cause of Zionism.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,208 ✭✭✭amandstu


    Everyone screws everyone .


    Had the "Palestinians" and the Arabs won(screwed the Jews) in 47/48 I would have been telling the Jews to make the best of the hand they were dealt.

    Israel .The little state that could.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 682 ✭✭✭Fr D Maugire


    Not really surprising to see the imperialistic might is right mindset coming to the fore now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,839 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    Arguing over the past I think is pretty irrelevant as I dont think the Palestinians will ever think they got a fair deal from the Jewish people in the past, and that will keep them fighting the Jewish people, even if the conflict only goes "hot" every few decades.

    This is more a problem for Israel as they just want peace with the surrounding countries and that is prevented in any meaningful way if they are still fighting the Palestinians.

    Hamas may be defeated and the rockets stop for a short while but if Israel doesn't occupy Gaza, which I dont think it has the strength to, the Gazans will be building up to avenge their 20k dead in a few years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 919 ✭✭✭ollkiller


    As we all hunker down for the Christmas with our lovely pints of Guinness in warm pubs I pray for a ceasefire so innocent children dont die.

    The conflict is a clusterf**k. A new years resolution I'd love to see happen is a 2 state solution leading to peace. It is actually the only way forward. In time, which could take decades due to barbarism by both Hamas and Israel being c**ts it might happen.

    Peace to you and yours this christmas. I despair at the lack of empathy on this thread to thousands of innocent people being killed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,839 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    I don't expect the Palestinians to give up. I have no skin in the game so they can continue to fight or not, I'm not recommending either choice. I just see no victory for either side in my lifetime. I also don't believe either side are animals.

    I am against the current Israeli operation and the death toll.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,208 ✭✭✭amandstu




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,694 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Unless you're calling for the USA to be given back to the natives, it's hardly much of a concession from me. We are where we are, is the point.

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,694 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    And everyone who lives in Siberia is a Siberian, but so what? It's a mixture of ethnicities, and the fact that one religion had the power over the all the others for decades, charging them a special tax to be "allowed" to live in their native lands for example, doesn't actually make those people any more entitled to decide on the government than any of the others.

    The fact is that the Muslims, specifically Arab Muslims, all around the Middle East and North Africa were determined to chase everyone else, including Jews and Christians - how many Jews are left in North Africa now? They hated the Jews so much that they couldn't bear for them to even have a tiny percentage of the lands being divvied up among the Arabs after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Nor the Armenian Christians in Turkey, nor indeed the Syrian Christians or any anyone else. Only Muslims were to be allowed to have a say in what replaced the Ottomans.

    The Christians and Kurds and the Yazidis etc all got pretty much nothing.

    Only the effect of the Holocaust in Europe meant that Jews were so desperate that they came anyway, despite everything, and meant also that other countries were shamed into giving the Jews a tiny part of the land, much of it desert, that was being redistributed in the aftermath of the Ottomans and the two WWs.

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,661 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    That why they became citizens of Israel? Because they were ignored?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,694 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    We've been over this before. It's not colonisation when there is no "motherland" as a home-base for the colonisers.

    As for the native Americans, the question is not what they "should have done" at the time. It's whether they'd be entitled now to go into random American homes and rape and murder them today, because their ancestors were forced out of their homes in the past.

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Hmmm. Interesting. Yet we were told that there was no concept of a "Palestinian" because they never had a state!

    Oh, how to resolve that cognitive dissonance?????!!!!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,694 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    No there was no concept of Palestinian being anything other than a geographic designation. Like Siberian describes anyone in Siberia, but is not an ethnicity nor an identity.

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Do you remember this from talking to the Palestinians yourself at the time?


    Were all the lads living there and working there on land that had been passed to them through the generations not self-aware enough to realise they existed?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,394 ✭✭✭SeanW


    You are supposedly not an anti-Semite but yet you repeatedly dunk all over the worlds' only Jewish state which accommodates nearly half of the worlds Jewish people.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on

    https://u24.gov.ua/
    Join NAFO today:

    Help us in helping Ukraine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,694 ✭✭✭volchitsa




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,394 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Or maybe they're fighting wars because they're surrounded by mortal enemies? What in your mind should the 7.4 million Jews who call Israel or the Disputed Territories their home, a large portion of them who are partially or wholly Mizrahi and/or Sephardi and thus native to the Middle East?

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on

    https://u24.gov.ua/
    Join NAFO today:

    Help us in helping Ukraine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Sorry. But it is clear that the only reason you would speak badly of Apartheid in South Africa is simply that you have a virulent racist hatred of Afrikaners. I can't think of any other reason why you would even attempt to criticise it.

    You will no doubt try to claim otherwise, but isn't it a tad coincidental that the vast majority of the world's Afrikaners happen to live there........

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,886 ✭✭✭dmcdona


    This, to me, is why Israel will be a pariah. This is why many of the world's population will continue to march and why they will continue to abhor what Israel is doing.

    No compassion.

    Shame on Netanyahu.


    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says the Gaza war has come at a "very heavy price" for his side.

    The military says more than a dozen soldiers have been killed in the territory since Friday, bringing the total of the ground assault to 154.




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