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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,770 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Solar not doing a lot in Ireland lately, it's like the lad who gets out of bed with a hangover, arrives late for work, barely does a tap during the day, then fecks off home early for some hair of the dog.

    https://www.greencollective.io/dashboard

    image.png


    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,045 ✭✭✭roosterman71




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,770 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande



    Where is Germany in that table?, should they not be on top with billions spent on their Energiewende. Obviously the lesson from this is that intermittent, unreliable generation sources with poor capacity factors are not going to get us there. Hydro is tapped out in Ireland. Irish politicians want to be the "best boys in Europe", simple solution, quadruple imports of "solid biofuel" from Brazil. Does importing wood pellets from Latvia to Ireland not count?, they are cheaper than domestic produced sources and they are green. How about heat pumps that run on electricity generated from steam power created in heat exchange from nuclear reactors? Like Sweden and Finland do.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,703 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Like much of everything else from the E.U nowadays the devil is in the detail. 60% of their claim on green energy comes from burning biomass which even most greens do not believe is emissions free.

    Screenshot 2023-12-22 at 11-22-37 Energy in Sweden 2022 – An overview - Energy in Sweden 2022 - an overview-2.pdf.png

    Far as I recall the stats for Finland are much the same in that they get 25% of their energy from burning wood. It has very much become a pretend game with the E.U. If we were to generate all our electricity from imported wood products then we would most likely be top of the class, but that would have everything to do with book keeping and little or nothing to do with clean green renewable energy.

    Edit. Just came across these.

    For Finland. A bit out of date as they now are up to 42% nuclear but are still burning peat for electricity generation.

    Screenshot 2023-12-22 at 12-53-18 Electricity sector in Finland - Wikipedia.png

    For Latvia.

    Screenshot 2023-12-22 at 12-51-20 Energy in Latvia - Wikipedia.png

    If these three are top of the class then it`s not like us because of their all in on wind and solar. AS far as the E.U. and emissions are concerned it`s not so much of us having to up our game, more a need for a bit of cop on that we are playing it under different rules

    Post edited by charlie14 on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,748 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    We are.

    We will be at 80% of electricity from renewables in a decade.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,434 ✭✭✭cute geoge


    What kind of drugs are you on because they must be pretty good ones!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,770 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    No. The economics of energy density matters, the very dilute flow of wind and solar means the provision of electrical power becomes exponentially more expensive as you try to both grow the generation capacity to meet demand while also approaching that 80% number. In a decade there will be 8 billion people on the planet who want the most affordable, reliable, plentiful energy, this is the reason why hydrocarbon based fuels are going to continue to be burned, even a decade from now.

    Secondly, the deliberate policy of strangling the European economy through lack of affordable energy is forcing German companies to move production outside the EU, as Germany sinks, the whole green house of cards goes with it, including the EUs green new deal. The political backlash is already present, the pendulum has started to swing against the existing incumbents and it's gathering momentum, now that Russian energy is only available indirectly, the EU is highly dependent on the United States and Arabian gulf states for hydrocarbon energy, the EU is highly dependent on China to process the raw materials needed for solar, wind and batteries. Unreliable generation has no way forward in a geopolitically unstable world, getting these projects off the ground is not economically feasible as can bee seen from the Wind project failures. In this insecure environment the lack of security in even sourcing conventional hydro-carbon energy becomes a higher priority in the EU, the lack of LNG platform in Ireland means we we can't secure delivery from a reliable source i.e. the United States.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,699 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    We've already passed the 8 billion people mark Pa, it'll be closer to 9 billion in a decade (unless you are assuming that 1 billion are impoverished or too young to want their share of that energy). Other than that, I can't argue with anything you've written.

    I suppose you could add that as we have more and more mouths to feed (as well as their insatiable appetite for energy), there's less and less land suitable for food production. This too impacts policy and may have consequences for where all the magical biomass might grow.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,773 ✭✭✭WishUWereHere


    At last Ryan talks sense:

    im all in support of this but it also begs a few questions:

    Why only now?

    the north quays up in Dublin are a mess. The queue to turn right at the bottom of Church Street to go up the hill causes sever build up back towards Parkgate Street. I’m sure there are lots of other bottle necks - how does he propose to sort these out?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,926 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    Used to live that area and saw them doing all the rearrangements back in 2021. It was blatantly obvious it would make traffic far worse. I've always believed they should have screwed the cycle lane and instead had one continuous bus lane all along the right-hand side next to the river.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,773 ✭✭✭WishUWereHere


    I can but agree with You here. I’ve seen it many times - there is no point in installing cycle lanes when there is no legal obligation on cyclists to use them.

    Speaking of bottlenecks, I still cannot understand the logic of taking away the left turn at Butt Bridge ( Amiens/Gardiner Streets ) outside Liberty Hall. Now traffic to make that left turn have to wait on the traffic lights instead of using the filter lane.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,699 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    That seems to be the standard approach to all left turns these days:

    1. Remove filter lane

    2. Force all 3 directions (left, right and straight) into the same lane

    3. Have 3 individual green arrows on the lights but stagger them so that everyone has to wait for someone going one of the other directions to get their green arrow.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,773 ✭✭✭WishUWereHere


    True but by having all traffic sitting at lights with engines idling ( thus adding fumes to the atmosphere ) defeating the very objective of Ryan & his crusade?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Yes, the Green Party have gone in and setup the different setting on the traffic lights.

    This thread is reduced to the same few posters moaning about as many stupid things as possible and then trying to say it "wAs tHe GreEn ParTy"


    image.png




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,662 ✭✭✭ps200306


    Your entire argument boils down to 'it's hard so we shouldn't even try to do it'... And as usual, not a single word about the massive environmental cost of not transitioning away from climate change

    I realise you can't help yourself. But you really should repeat it to yourself a few times per day until it sinks in:

    NOTHING IRELAND DOES CAN OR WILL AFFECT CLIMATE CHANGE.

    NOTHING IRELAND DOES CAN OR WILL AFFECT CLIMATE CHANGE.

    NOTHING IRELAND DOES CAN OR WILL AFFECT CLIMATE CHANGE.

    See how easy that is? After that you should be able to rethink "the massive environmental cost of not transitioning away from climate change". There isn't any. Ireland cannot "transition away from climate change". That's not even a thing.

    Here's a thought, though. If Ireland didn't blow all its money on the crazy pipedreams of a green megalomaniac, it would have a lot more left for climate change adaptation if and when required. It would be also well situated to adopt low carbon energy technologies whenever someone with more clout than us matures them, and when the winners in the technology race become clearer. In particular we would be able to see how other island nations like Taiwan fare with their particular problem of grid isolation. Right now Taiwan is looking like becoming another casualty of the monumentally stupid decision to shut down nuclear and rely on offshore wind, with wind developments now also being cancelled due to rising rates.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,703 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    You will get that when people become totally frustrated and angry seeing political ineptitude and hyporisy on policies where the party proposing such policies cannot even put a cost to their proposals before flitting off chasing the next shiny add-ons like carbon capture. Especially when even their own supporters cannot give a logical reason for some of those policies, and their only answer to cost is the cult like reply "Trust me my child and have faith"

    It`s becoming ever clearer that for the Irish Green party it`s all to do with the ideology and little to do with climate change. For Europe it is just as farcical when you see that according to the E.U. the 3 best in class are Sweden, Finland and Latvia when nuclear and wood burning are the reasons they are the top 3.

    The whole thing has descended into Orwellian farce when even greens cannot decide which set of legs are good or bad.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,926 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    The supposed longer-term aim is to "force" people out of cars with an attempt to make the experience more horrible than public transport. It doesn't work that well but it is all about virtue-signalling rather than practical results.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    When you don't even understand what the government or the opposition are planning then not sure how you can get frustrated.

    It's becoming even clearer that some people have an unhealthy obsession with the Green Party, if they get voted out in the next election it will be fun to see who this obsession gets transferred to.....Im sure it will just continue with "something something nuclear something something" 😂 totally oblivious to the fact no other political party in Ireland has suggest nuclear.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,045 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    I found it quite funny that so many councils decided to give free parking in their car parks up and down the country for Christmas in a bid to get punters into the towns to spend the mullah. No big push for park and ride, or saying how great the public transport is. None of that. It was get into your car, and drive in and get free parking.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=free+parking+christmas

    And many green councilors on the councils too. Surely they'd be pushing back but not heard much. To me, this backs up the previous Irish Times poll where business overwhelmingly said they didn't give 2 figs about climate change



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,527 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    don't know about the rest of ireland but i was in city centre today and last saturday, i've never seen dublin so busy in my life, i would imagine the vast majority of people were arriving by public transport as there simply isn't enough parking for the throngs of people in town currently.

    i would have thought green councillors would be opposed to free parking though, but they're not the majority on councils generally.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,527 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    well what's the alternative? keep putting more and more cars on the road as the population grows? space is limited in dublin, we need people to leave the car at home more and more by providing alternatives. i'm not sure where the virtue signalling lies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,662 ✭✭✭ps200306


    Oh, and I've already answered the 'question' about how much Hydrogen costs. It's about 20c per unit of electricity, (including capital costs)

    That was based on info from IRENA and NREL

    Even if the unit cost was double that. Given that the energy is intended as a backup, it would still be a reasonable cost per unit.

    You do realist the NREL numbers are American? The average cost of electricity in the US last year was barely a quarter of the price in Ireland. Energy in general is vastly cheaper in the US. It's one of the big things underpinning their role as global superpower.

    Meanwhile, for the IRENA numbers, here's a quote from their costings (PDF download):

    A challenge for hydrogen production from offshore wind is the high cost of electricity compared with solar PV. Auctions and power purchase agreement data suggest that the European market could reach electricity costs of USD 50 per megawatt hour (MWh) to USD 100/MWh for offshore wind by 2023, with some of the most competitive projects reaching USD 30/MWh (IRENA, 2022c). Even the lower bound would be triple the current lowest bids for solar PV (USD 10/MWh) and would translate into a hydrogen cost of USD 1.5/kgH2 without adding any costs for the electrolyser.

    You've probably noticed that those low offshore wind prices in the UK evaporated before the projects even started. In Ireland, our latest onshore wind auction produced prices higher than the upper end of IRENA estimates. ORESS-1 produced lower bids, but those are likely to evaporate too. It should be obvious that there is no point quoting US numbers or out-of-date numbers. Ireland has a special talent for breaking records in infrastructure costs.

    As a matter of pure arithmetic, how do you get "20c per unit of electricity, (including capital costs)" for hydrogen if the input energy costs alone are a multiple of that?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,748 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Some Councils with a greater green representation wouldn't have gone for a parking promotion around Christmas, mainly the more affluent, urban ones.

    But rural towns where parking controls are in place, prioritise Christmas turnover ahead of virtue signalling and so have stuck with cheaper or free parking.

    And of course they'd be right to. If parking isn't easy, the businesses don't enough custom. If businesses don't get enough custom, they don't survive. If they don't survive, the Council loses it Rates base. And if that happens then it has no money to operate and reinvest in local services and initiatives.

    So, if the Greens plan to put up any sort of a fight ahead of these upcoming elections, they'd want to come up with some suggestions as to how to fund local government sustainably. Cos the way they're going, they'll have our rural towns boarded up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,926 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    It is virtue-signalling because all too often the alternatives are horrid, unviable, or non-existent. I hardly ever drove when I lived in Dublin so was acutely aware of the trouble relying on buses can cause.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,045 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Well the mayor in Athlone where free parking is available is a Green Party member. You are right though that green members wouldn't be huge in number. I suppose my point was that public transport and the like is put to the side in favour of getting people in cars into the towns.

    Public transport in and out of Dublin, and around Dublin is by far the best in the country. However, according to TII, The N3, N4, N7 and N11 have had more traffic on them to date this year than previous years.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,703 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    A rather amusing reply from someone who did not even know what the plan he was supporting was, let alone the cost, and did not know the difference between net zero emissions and carbon neutral. Someone who even after they were explained to many times, with links included, still appears not to know.

    It really does not matter one iota where the Irish Green Party are after the next GE. This offshore plan was economically unviable for 30GW nameplate capacity never mind the present 37GW or the 70GW that would be required by 2050 based on Eirgrid predictions. Greens in or out of government is not going to change that.

    It is not just on here that the economic unviabilty of wind is apparent. An ever growing number of greens and green activist groups are recognising the same under the green ecomodernist umbrella RePlanet They have successfully campaigned for the inclusion of nuclear in E.U. taxonamy, in Finnish greens voting in favor and advocating for further nuclear plants, welcomed the Netherlands decision to build two new nuclear power plants and have campaigned against Germany shutting theirs. RePlanet in the U.K. is being fronted by former leading lights in Extinction Rebellion which is quite a turn around.

    For anyone who cares to see it, it`s not difficult to understand their reasoning. Top of the E.U. best in class list are Sweden, Finland and Latvia. Sweden and Finland due to nuclear, and Latvia where wind and solat provide more or less sweet fcuk all. Even looking at France which has the lowest emission in Europe due to nuclear should be an indicator for other green if emissions rather than attempting to foster their ideology on others was thair real aim



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,662 ✭✭✭ps200306


    The media leaps upon every extreme weather event these days. Here's a headline you definitely won't be seeing, although it's the result of a preliminary survey of US weather for 2023:

    "Mostly boring"

    • Hurricanes, below average
    • Tornadoes, average
    • Hail, a bit below recent averages
    • Floods, same as the 2000-2022 average
    • Wildfires, well below average, lowest burned acreage for 25 years
    • Droughts, unexceptional, same as the medium term average, some drought relief since 2022
    • Percentage of very wet days, no real trend in the past century, slightly up on the 1980s
    • Percentage of very dry days, trending slightly downward over the past century
    • Winds, exceptionally strong
    • Average temperatures, average
    • Extreme heat, well above average
    • Extreme cold, well below average
    • High temperature extremes affect winter more than summer -- average high for July is up about 0.3C since 1895 while average high for January is up 0.8C.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,473 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    "mostly boring" if you ignore

    • Winds, exceptionally strong
    • Extreme heat, well above average
    • Extreme cold, well below average
    • High temperature extremes affect winter more than summer -- average high for July is up about 0.3C since 1895 while average high for January is up 0.8C.




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 969 ✭✭✭InAtFullBack




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