Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Many believe Hamas figures because over the years, when WHO, or MSF, or other organizations determine deaths in Gaza, they've found the figures to be extremely close to those the Gaza Health Ministry produces.

We've seen how reliable Israeli communications and messaging has been over the last several weeks. The fact that this is supposedly an NGO means nothing to me in the context of who to believe.

Ok - let's leave it there.

I think context is important.

Last elections were 2005 (18 years ago). Half the population of Gaza were not even born then.

Israel supported Hamas and wanted them to win the election to split the Palestinian authority.

Do you think the Israelis are currently exhibiting adult humane behaviour?

Sorry, I think I missed the post. The source of what?

There's a lot of arguments on here containing contradictions put forward as some kind of gotcha to excuse Israel (vs its neighbours and of course countries like Belarus) and imply its being held to an impossible standard.

What-about the muslim fundamentalism and the intolerance, oppression and violence that is widespread across rest of the ME...all the deaths in Syrian civil war, Yemen...blah blah...

In my mind either Israel is a Western democratic country all the way, even when at war, or it is not.

When Israel commit atrocities and war crimes to achieve goals, fact that they, unlike rest of ME, have democractic internal workings and a free society (excl. "occupied territories" ofc) and are a more humane place to live than surrounding countries + more like us in that way, is rendered irrelevant to me. 

Israel becomes yet another awful ME state, fitting into a violent region full of closed minds, religious and nationalist nutjobs and brutal rulers.

Given this, why should we (in real Western countries) support everything Israel does?

To try and force compliance and continued unquestioned support, they (govt., spokespeople etc.) come out with this very shrill and desparate (+ often absurd) you are with us or against us message.

If that's all they have now well it won't work forever I predict, not even on the US.

edit: Even before recent growth of isolationism in US, imo they have always been fickle and inconstant about allies when there is no deeper ideological or emotional link there and its just a case of "our bastard" vs "the other, maybe worse, bastard who is agin us".

This is a lie. An utter and total fabrication.

They'll be stopped at the border as they cannot enter a country that is not theirs. If they attempt to breach it they'll be fired on.

is it time to start carpet bombing isreal ?

For some one on a gaza/ Israel thread you seem to be only interested in talking about Ireland. Perhaps you could start a thread on how backward the Irish are.

That's the most hypocritical aspect of the Palestinian supporters on here. They will quite happily decry Israel but turn a blind eye to Hamas, the people who initiated this war and continue it despite the horrific damage that it has inflicted on their own people and land.

Actually, you made the assertion. see my reference below. I look forward to seeing your reference

1) “The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.”

This declaration doesn’t just say that Israel is the historic homeland of Jews, which is a core part of Zionist ideology and the argument for the Jewish state’s existence in what’s now Israel. Instead, this goes further to unequivocally state that Jews — and only Jews — have the exclusive right to “self-determination” within Israel. 

In other words, only Jews have the right to determine what kind of state and society they live under. Which means that by default, non-Jews — such as Palestinian citizens of Israel, some of whom are Muslim and some of whom are Christian — don’t have that same right.

https://www.vox.com/world/2018/7/31/17623978/israel-jewish-nation-state-law-bill-explained-apartheid-netanyahu-democracy

Assuming that I regarded China and Israel as being equally horrible (I don't, but for the sake of argument) one could start by publicly promoting a BDS movement against the so-called People's Republic of China. Personally I try to avoid Chinese made products wherever I can, but I don't expect a large scale BDS movement against China to gain traction because the Chinese are likely held to lower standards by the Left for racial reasons.

Of course, if you really wanted to be consistent, your slogan would have to be "From the Mountains to the Seas, East Turkestan will be free" making it clear that the objective is not a multi-state solution (e.g. China, East Turkestan, Tibet and Inner Mongolia going to Mongolia) but that the Chinese people were to be driven into the sea, even from cities like Beijing, Harbin, Shenzen etc. Because it's the "From the river to the sea" chant that is genocidal, not Israel.

Funny how much hatred and demonisation is directed at one of the worlds smallest countries, one that has been fighting mortal enemies bent on its utter annihilation since the day it was founded, and just happens to be the worlds only Jewish-majority country and the closest thing to a safe haven for Jews in the world.

All this dog-piling on little old Israel is really ... ironic, is perhaps the kindest word I can use.

Interesting.. and Israel are holding them to account.

But they hide behind their civilians causing death and destruction to their own.

So the question is.. who's responsible?

I think Amnesty International answered that question in the article you posted.

This is the US we're talking about. Going by historical precedent, I would think "all of them and also profit from the carnage". I wouldn't say that now, but I'd think it.