Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Israel being an apartheid state would come as a surprise to the Israeli-Arabs and the Druze population, many of whom happily enjoy the full rights of Israeli citizenship. As to the settler colonial bit, I don't think the Mizrahim, who are native to the Middle East, could be called settler colonialist. Refugees from the rest of the Middle East might be more like it. Israel might have been planned by the Ashkenazi originally, but they're now a minority in Israel. Nor do I think anyone born in Israel could be considered a settler-colonialist, nor anyone even today who makes Aliyah and is welcomed by the natives, regardless of their skin colour.

But it's funny how no Muslim states get the same criticism.

I brought race and politics into it because people on the Left tend to be obsessed with race and politics. I think one of the reasons the Left hates Israel so much is that they perceive it to be a white country. When not only is that not true, but the militaristic policies are promoted by its Middle Eastern and North African ethnic majority. Of course, if the Left have deemed the Mizrahi to be "white adjacent" the way the US Left has done with Asian Americans, then this would be somewhat theoretical.

I feel a much greater need to defend Israel, it's people and right to exist more so than the details of their policy, because many of Israel's detractors don't care how nice they are to the Palestinians or how much land they give away or whatever. They just want Israel gone, full stop.

As to "How about target the efffing terrorists and do everything possible to prevent civilian death and suffering," that sounds like a good idea - to me. But then again, I don't have a bomb shelter in my house, I haven't had to defend my country with force, and nobody in my family history has ever had to flee their homeland as refugees to the only place they could find some kind of safety among people like themselves. Nobody is trying to drive the Irish into the sea ... at least not since the Famine.

So what seems like a good idea to you and me, might not seem so to someone who actually is native to the Middle East.

This statement just has to be discussed. For two reasons.

Firstly, in the post you responded to, there was no mention of the word 'Jews' that is something you have either interpreted as being implied or are deliberately phrasing your response so as to infer it was implied knowing that it wasn't. I'm not saying you have done either, just that it seems that it was one or other.

And this is a critical part of this discussion. Time and time again on this thread, and in the broader discussion, the topic of Jews, versus Israelis (generally) and the Israeli state (specifically) is a bone of contention. I am one of the people who has been staunchly critical of the Israeli state, and anyone who supports their actions with respect to the Palestinians. But I also see myself as very supportive of the Jewish religion and I've said on this thread before that I will continue to advocate for their security as I have done in the past when individuals or the wider religion are being threatened.

It is a unacceptable to conflate criticism of Israel as being criticism of Jews, and I frequently feel that this is being done so as to shut down criticism of the actions that are impacting the Palestinians so negatively. I don't just feel it, I know it is often being done, on here and elsewhere (not saying by you specifically) and that is unacceptable.

Secondly, in the days after Oct 7th, most major world leaders rushed to support Israel and offer them moral and material support for what they were about to do. Within 2 weeks of the attack, both Joe Biden and the leader of the EU had been on the ground in Israel offering this support in person. Since then, the US has continued to provide the funds to facilitate Israels actions entirely. And has done so without any censure or condemnation of their actions in killing tens of thousands. President Biden publicly repeated some of the IDF falsehoods (twice) as part of his efforts to show support for Israel. The US Congress has passed one of the single most draconian pieces of legislation in my lifetime in equating antizionism with antisemitism. Essentially ensuring that the state of Israel can not be questioned for its actions.

The leaders of the UK, Canada, Germany, Australia continue to make it clear that they see any negative assessments of Israel's actions as being inappropriate. A German state has introduced a requirement for immigrants to formally accept that the Israel state has a right to exist. The Presidents of Penn State, Harvard and MIT are being called on to resign (the Penn state president already has) after they appeared in Congress discussing how Jewish people felt unsafe because people were chanting free Palestine. This at the same time as 3 Palestinian students in Vermont were shot, one of them being paralyzed.

So if all of this equates to 'a different, much more severe judgement than everyone else', then I think Palestine, and many other marginalized groups, in the middle east and beyond would only love to be judged in the same way. If you believe the statement you wrote to be true, which I'm sure you do, it's why you wrote it, then I'd ask you to think about these facts and consider if you stand over it.

Where Israel does not see a predominance of support is in the eye of public opinion world wide, echoed by the constant marches in support of Palestine. But this mindset is unburdened by business deals, sunk costs, or beneficial relationships, but rather that simple reality of understanding that this is a situation of the oppressed, and the oppressor and the vastly different ratio in the support (in real terms) offered to one side versus the other is reflected in the death and suffering experienced by both parties and in the simple world of right and wrong, people can see this for what it is.

It's like what's going on in the West Bank doesn't exist for some people

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"As for Israel fighting for its existence since it was formed, it didn't event exist as a concept until the late 19th century when zionism emerged and gained traction. It is one of the few states in the world founded specifically so as to give a home for a particular religion, of course there are many states that have used religion to focus their state and so have gotten to the point where the state is seen as a representative of the religion (Ireland up to mid 90's for example) but I'm not sure of many that were specifically founded 'because' of a religion. "

Religious Zionism, one of the precepts of Judaism, has existed longer than Western civilization has existed. Political Zionism, a movement to establish a political entity for Jews in Israel, gained traction in the mid-19th century. Condemning 'Zionism' as racism, when applied to religious Zionism, would be similar to condemning Hajj as a precept and obligation of Muslims.

As for states focused on religion, I submit to you, Vatican City. An extremely wealth state, corrupt and guilty at a minimum of supporting horrible crimes against women and children with little or no remorse.

Welcome to WWIII. Remind me, why should Turkey give 2 figs for the Palestinians? Not like they let them or anyone else in.

I don't understand the idea that that the Jewish people didn't exist in Palestine prior to the creation of the state.

Ultimately the roots of this conflict is the failure to create a two state solution in 1947. Which is baffling.

Not that I think it would have been a peaceful co-existance. Or that any of the above justifies Israel over reaction in killing civilians. But it's entirely predictable based on their reaction to previous attacks. As such Hamas knew what they were starting.

The one that "translates" to free is a back translation from English. The original slogan was associated with the story of Solomon and the baby the two women fought over, ie, they felt that giving any part of the land to Israel was cutting the baby in two. So no Israel.

Do I think people in the west who march for Palestine and use that slogan now are aware of that? No, I think very often they are not. I'm sure they're well meaning, and just want peace - but many are only reacting instinctively to civilian deaths, without grasping much about the conflict and what they're effectively supporting, namely Hamas' murders, including of Palestinian opponents. I even saw an American woman being interviewed at just such a march who didn't even know what river was being referred to. Like - how can someone like that have an informed opinion?

But being a useful idiot is not much of an excuse, really.

They were attacked on Oct 7th , lots of Israelis are fairly upset still

I don't think anyone has ever claimed there were no Jewish people in Palestine, but they were a minority group. In fact there were more Christians in Palestine than Jewish people before Zionism. By 1900, the population was about 20,000 Jewish and 500,000 Arabs.

The start of this conflict was not the creation of Israel, it started when Britain back Zionism through the Balfour agreement and when the Great powers ignored the recommendations of their own commission of enquiry post WW1, which advised against Zionism and the creation of a Jewish state in that region. Based on their research in the region, The Commission recognised that any attempt to create a Jewish state would lead to conflict and here we are 100 years later.

Israel is not defending itself. It is engaged on a campaign to eradicate Palestine as a legal entity and is quite prepared to massacre innocents in doing so. It's a campaign too far gone to salvage a peaceful solution unfortunately. One thing that Israel might not have taken into consideration though, is that even if they repopulate all the occupied territories, do they really think they will have 'won the war'? If Palestinians are made to disperse worldwide it will certainly make international Jewish infrastructure and people targets in whatever new phase this war will take. Israel will have made themselves a new, invisible enemy.

I saw a well known psychologist suggesting last night that Israel going straight into murderous revenge mode almost instantly after October 7th was hugely ill advised. People in Israel hadn't even a moment to grieve or to process the awful events - attacking Gaza and its civilians like this out of pure spite and revenge is just adding to the trauma.

The 22:1 kill ratio has been well surpassed so I think Israel is all in.

Judging by recent statements from the Israeli war cabinet, they will continue this course, regardless of countless calls to stop, until the bitter end.

The numbers of Palestinian dead will continue to increase as will the discomfort of those denying genocide - until the facts speak for themselves.

And when all done, Israel will still be surrounded by people who would see them destroyed.

Strategic failure indeed.

Correct, but one major difference is that Israel were able to completely control the narrative in the past via their numerous fanboys / lackeys in the western media. Social media has changed everything and people in the West are no longer relying on what the mainstream media has to say - which means they are hearing way more anti-Israel and pro-Palestinian voices for the first time ever.

That’s pretty much my take on it at this stage, and that’s coming from someone who supported them in the early stages of this invasion after the Hamas attacks- but not now.

They are clearly wanting the destruction of not just Hamas at this point but also the complete displacement of literally millions of people - I don’t see how bulldozing houses graveyards ancient religious buildings and cultural artefacts is part of “going after Hamas”.

Given the terrorist make up of Hamas, it’s not like you can simply target a few strategic buildings and bam, 80% of Hamas destroyed- they’re intertwined across that strip of land with 100,000s of innocent people - it’s an impossible task which is why after the first few weeks of this invasion peace talks should have been the next step.

Whatever enemies Israel had to date, they’ve now multiplied 10 fold.

I always thought this suited Russia the most. Taking the eye off their own invasion.

This may stop the unlimited supply of US weapons to isreal, as they don't seem to be as popular as they thought they were among the American population. Without America would be interesting to see how they do