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FF/FG/Green Government - Part 3

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,878 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    UHL was in the news since early October.

    October 4th

    Trolley numbers in UHL approach record levels - Limerick Live (limerickleader.ie)

    TROLLEY numbers in University Hospital Limerick are approaching record levels this Wednesday.

    121 people are on trolleys in UHL, according to numbers published by the Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation. 

    There are 61 people waiting for beds in the Emergency Department, while 60 are in wards elsewhere in the hospital. The record for daily trolley numbers in UHL is 126, which was set in April 2022.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,878 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    And remember it is acknowledged by all clinical experts that the trolley crisis leads to a lower level of care and ultimately deaths.

    Candlelit vigil to take place for those who have suffered in the fallout of the UHL trolley crisis (limerickpost.ie)

    A CANDLELIT vigil remembering patients who have died having languished on trolleys in the persistently-overcrowded University Hospital Limerick is to take place outside the entrance of the hospital this Sunday (December 17).

    The Mid West Hospital Campaign (MWHC) group, who have consistently called for the reopening of 24-hour accident and emergency units in Clare, north Tipperary, and Limerick city and county, announced the vigil this week.

    The group announced the vigil in a statement released after the HSE apologised to the family of Aoife Johnston, from Shannon, County Clare, a 16-year old girl who died of sepsis and meningitis having spent 12 hours on a trolley at UHL.

    23rd October

    ‘They’re prepared to let us die’ - widow of man who died after 36-hour trolley wait says she would rather die than go to overcrowded UHL | Independent.ie

    ‘They’re prepared to let us die’ - widow of man who died after 36-hour trolley wait says she would rather die than go to overcrowded UHL

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,253 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    It's really quite simple why it's not a free market.

    It's accepted economic theory that a free market is one where producers and consumers can enter and exit freely.

    That doesn't apply to housing in Ireland and likely never will.

    The normal rules of supply and demand don't apply in this kind of distorted market and this is especially the case with the labour shortages we see now.

    The comparison you've made with the car industry doesn't hold up because the same market factors don't apply.

    With labour constraints as they are now, increasing output massively increases cost, so why would you?

    It's not a cartel and I'm not claiming it is, it's just profiteering in a restricted market.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,878 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Fine Gael 2007

    Remember this famous Fine Gael ad from 2007? · TheJournal.ie

    16 years ago Enda Kenny promised to end the trolley crisis.

    Imagine how many extra beds we could have if the Children's hospital was built on time and anywhere near budget (currently 7 times over budget).

    Fine Gael, lying to the people since 2007.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,253 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    Insults aside, I think I've a fairly decent grasp on the construction industry.

    The article you've shared is based entirely on quotes from an industry figure, might it just be they have a vested interest?

    Further, there's no mention in the article of increases in planning objections, only decreases in planning applications.

    Could that be anything to do with rising interest rates, and the cost of living crisis you think?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo



    Maybe on last paragraph

    I posted a link above from the examiner. From the article

    "The problem is planning, planning, planning and within this, the problem is a legislative one," Mr Lawlor continued. "The new planning act, launched in March was aimed at addressing the delays in the planning system but we have yet to see any real evidence of this.

    "What we are left with is a shortage of shovel-ready sites, meaning builders, starved of sites, are bidding the site prices up, driving site prices up, impacting viability, increasing risk, and negatively impacting delivery."

    Deflect to opposition? I was talking about people and parties. Interesting you would mention the opposition, trying to tell us something



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,878 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    No response on UHL? That was the substance of my reply.

    Where is the reference to all the blocked planning and objections?

    So the governments delay in planning legislation is one of the many blame factosrs? Agreed.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Post away about UHL. I don't see anyone saying the HSE doesn't have issues. I just posted that people believe the party they vote for have a better plan to fix it than other. No theatrics of walking into ER etc required.

    Yes planning needs to be updated, that is not going to resolve the shortfall we have in housing now because we have had planning delays for years. Projects which should be available now are only breaking ground.

    Did anyone think a political party would systematically block housing for years to create a housing crisis and drive it to a peak in a hunger to get into government? I certainly didn't. I don't think anyone did. Remember the planning laws worked before, so what's the change now?

    Remember you brought up the opposition so you are aware of the issue yourself. So I think you know the answer yourself.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,787 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    All of which would indeed suggest the planning is the problem, not the private nature of the building, as that is the primary blockage of entering the market (this is not a suggestion for no planning of course).

    You are conflating profit margins decreasing with actual profit. Building more with potentially higher costs still makes more money.

    Nor, for that matter, are you making it remotely clear how having state building will solve any of this



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,253 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    Ok, let's say planning objections are fixed in the morning...

    If I want to set up as a developer. Where do I get workers?

    There's other restrictions, but that's the big one right now.

    And I understand the difference between profit and profit margins, but you're basing your assumptions again on free market conditions. Do you think profit margins would decrease in this case in a smooth, linear fashion? Or that producers would want to jeopardise their very favourable market conditions?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Called subcontractors.

    If planning is fixed in the morning and you start building today you will at a push start to sell houses in 2 years.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,787 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    If I want to set up as a developer. Where do I get workers?

    They have to pay more, though building higher density buildings would probably help.

    Where does the State get them? How is this an issue with relying on Private development? Because that was your primary statement.

    Ultimately planning issues and delays also make it incredibly difficult to plan for the future and indeed try and grow the workforce.


    The government deserves plenty of blame for the problems. I have no issue with that. I think differently about the solutions, because I simply do not believe that the population of Ireland (or many other countries) are willing to accept the changes needed. People simply don't like development near them.

    What I can't understand is why people think that State building is going to change a thing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,878 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    The opposition is always someone else other than the coalition of chaos. In this case you blamed MegamanBoo for not helping fix UHL. Jesus wept. You're kinda floundering now so I'll leave you to it.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    It's cute when people resort to twitter comments like "coalition of chaos".

    No I didn't blame them for not fixing UHL. I asked them if they ever helped fund raised etc.

    As usual with any of these threads, once people don't have anything of interest to offer they post nonsense like this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,878 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    I am not on Twitter.

    Fund raise? You want members of the public to fund raise for a public hospital? To what end exactly? So they can build more wards / beds and hire more staff? That's your solution?

    You want taxpayers to fund raise to help the government fix the trolley crisis despite the current budget for health? Wow.

    Maybe we should fund raise for the 2 Billion plus Children's hospital too?

    There is a trolley crisis ever year. It gets worse every year. We hit new records earlier this year. Should we all fund raise to help provide extra capacity.

    FG promised to end the trolley crisis in 2007. It has failed to do so for 16 years.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    People all over Ireland do fundraising for hospitals. From small to large. Not sure why this seems so odd to you. Personally I have been involved in fundraising and donated over the years.

    "Wow" 🤣

    I didn't ask you to do anything. It certainly looks like you haven't done anything till now so why change.

    It's a personal decision for people to fundraiser, something I am happy to help with and donate to.


    https://www.limerickpost.ie/2022/12/25/friends-big-idea-brings-smiles-to-children-in-limerick-hospital/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,878 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Ah stop, you are clueless. The solution to the trolley crisis is to get taxpayers to fund raise. Personally I....yeah right. Genius idea. You should ask Leo and Co to make an address to the people to fund raise for public hospital beds.

    Lesson for you...Just before Covid hit (November 2019), the INMO were crying out for help and issuing press releases showing the record numbers on trolleys.

    This lack of capacity meant we had much longer lockdowns than many other EU countries. We had to lockdown because our hospitals were already at full capacity. Trip down memory lane for you.

    Trolley numbers for 2019 highest since records began, union claims | Independent.ie

    Trolley numbers for 2019 highest since records began, union claims

    Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation said 108,364 people have gone without beds in 2019 so far.

    “We know the problem, but we also know the solutions: extra beds in hospitals, safe staffing levels, and more step-down and community care outside of the hospital.

    “No other developed country faces anything close to this trolley problem. It can be solved, but a strong political agenda to drive change is needed.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,878 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Barry Cowen (FF TD) on the Tonight Show is getting destroyed on the Housing crisis. He wants the ground to open up. Good panel discussion.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    Good panel discussions that just spouts out the usual far right nonsense when pressed on why Irish people can’t access housing and migrants can.


    Far right Far right Far right….



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    What makes you think FFG not being in govt will increase housing output?

    The 30k govt housing target was hit this year and 35k new homes are expected next year.

    Thats not too shabby, though still not where we really should be.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Nobody said the solution to trolley crisis is fundraising

    It’s mindless babbling now from you



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 700 ✭✭✭US3


    Can you show me where you got the 30k target being hit, even anywhere near 30k..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,878 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Right. Your thoughts on what INMO said in November 2019 re trolley crisis? They mention solution and fault.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Did I claim to know how to resolve the HSE? No i didnt

    Do you know how to fix the HSE? Would love to hear



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,878 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    You're waffling. I am trying to establish who is to blame for decades of a trolley crisis. You won't even acknowledge it. The INMO know.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    If you say so. Why are you trying to establish blame? Im sure it's partly the government, partly the HSE management and a load of other issues. I am not an expert on the HSE so I can't tell you exactly why.

    I am more interested in how to resolve the problem and as I posted I think people will vote for parties who they think has a better plan. So the carry on of posting about people walking into ER etc is just nonsense. Also declaring that FFG supporters don't care is total nonsense.

    Has the INMO released a plan on how to resolve the HSE?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,441 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    It is also partly the fault of the INMO and the other unions in the health service who operate restrictive practices within the health service that push up costs. It is also partly the doctors as well.

    About the only stakeholder who are not in anyway at fault is the taxpayer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    If the resolution for the HSE was easy they would have done it by now, even if they done it by mistake.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,878 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    QED. Blaming doctors and nurses. That didn't take long.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,878 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Perhaps you should read what I post. The INMO have consistently said the solution is more capacity. More beds and staff. Very simple. More capacity.

    Repeated below...read parts in bold

    Just before Covid hit (November 2019), the INMO were crying out for help and issuing press releases showing the record numbers on trolleys.

    This lack of capacity meant we had much longer lockdowns than many other EU countries. We had to lockdown because our hospitals were already at full capacity.

    Trolley numbers for 2019 highest since records began, union claims | Independent.ie

    Trolley numbers for 2019 highest since records began, union claims

    Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation said 108,364 people have gone without beds in 2019 so far.

    “We know the problem, but we also know the solutions: extra beds in hospitals, safe staffing levels, and more step-down and community care outside of the hospital.

    “No other developed country faces anything close to this trolley problem. It can be solved, but a strong political agenda to drive change is needed.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,878 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Blanch might comments on this rather than dismissing the moaning nurses. Again the root cause is capacity capacity capacity. More beds, more staff.

    Instead we are 7 times over budget on the Children's Hospital.

    Hospital bed occupancy for January and February exceeded best-practice limit, HSE says – The Irish Times

    Hospital bed occupancy for January and February exceeded best-practice limit, HSE says

    Use levels across country in first two months of year were 95.1%, much higher than during pandemic

    Bed occupancy in the hospital system climbed higher than pre-Covid levels during the surge in respiratory infections earlier this year, new figures show.

    According to data compiled by the Health Service Executive, the overall level of bed occupancy across the country in January and February of this year was 95.1 per cent – significantly in excess of what is considered best practice, and higher by far than during the pandemic.

    The Irish Patients’ Association published research earlier this year suggesting almost 1,300 patients died over the winter as a result of delays in hospital admission. The availability of inpatient beds for admissions, and the associated issue of community beds or homecare supports for those awaiting issues, can slow the number of people transferring through emergeny departments, which in turn can impact outcomes.

    The Economic and Social Research Institute said late last month that the health service was short of about 1,000 beds and needed an additional 300 new beds annually to keep up with demand.

    ------

    We better start fund raising 😉

    Post edited by Cluedo Monopoly on

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,253 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo



    Because the state can entice workers to the construction industry with job security. I believe a big part of the reason people are reluctant to take on apprenticeships is because they (understandably) fear having to emigrate when another downturn happens.

    Also the state can set money aside to build during economic downturns, so we don't have to catch up during boom times.

    Further, the state can introduce much needed competition to the market by offering affordable homes at cost price.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,878 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Yeah tradesmen are emigrating in a huge way at the moment. Plumbers, Electricians, Carpenters etc. One of the main reasons is they cannot afford to pay the exorbitant rents and they cannot afford to get on the property ladder. Crazy vicious cycle.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,253 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    When I finished school in the late nineties, you could pay basic rent and have a night out at the weekends on 1st year apprentice rates.

    These days you'd have to be from a well to do background, so as to be subsidized to live as an apprentice. I believe they get hit with college fees for their placements now too.

    This during a housing 'emergency'



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,787 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    And you think the State is going to pay them rates that will keep them here?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,787 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    How much of a home do you think the developer profit margin is?

    And who is going to be entitled to these homes at "cost price"?

    And how affordable do you think homes at cost price are actually going to be?

    And how likely do you think it is that the state will be able to set aside money during an economic downturn to fund labourers for building subsidised homes to sell at a cost price without massive popular pushback?

    I don't agree with the basic premise as all jobs face difficulties during economic downturns and nor do I think most people look at their careers that long term.

    I fundamentally agree with you that the housing market is broken, but I just can not agree that the problem is that we left it to private development when the massive, massive issue facing us is that not enough development is being approved to be done despite it being a wildly profitable endeavour. The State will face 100% the same problems private development faces and more on top as political interference in planning has had nothing but significant negative outcomes.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,787 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    An apprentice electrician supposedly earns 30k€. apprentice carpenter 27k€.

    You'll be living in a flatshare but you don't need to be from a "well to do background".

    Though clearly there is scope to pay them a bit more if there was work for them, so maybe people should stop objecting to every single god damn development that anyone ever tries to build. (also the govt should fund ABP better and thankfully they are starting to do that, but it should never have been let fall into such a state).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,253 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,787 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Statutory minimum rates are not the same as what people are actually paid.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,246 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    The minimum wage for most jobs in the country is currently €11.30 an hour - yet over 93% of workers are actually earn more than that.

    You do understand that the legal minimum isn’t necessary what people actually get paid don’t you?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,878 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Not at all. I expect a state to be able to provide it's citizens with a working housing market. A normal housing market with affordable rents for all working people. The housing market is currently broken. Young people are saying that so much of their disposable income is gone on rent that they will never be able to afford a mortgage.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,878 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    The former deputy chairman of ABP was jailed in June for corruption in planning. He didn't lick it off the stones. Mahon and numerous RTE Investigates have exposed major corruption in planning and called for immediate reform. Why have FFG always stalled on it? 25 years after Mahon and they are being forced to act?

    That Mahon Tribunal cost 300 million Euro.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,787 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    HOW!?

    What do you think is wrong with the housing market and how do you think it can be fixed?

    For me, the absolutely smack in your face answer is that we are not building enough and that is because mid density housing in brownfield sites is still regularly being refused permission. We can not semi-D our way out of this mess. Any apartment block that isn't at least 7 stories that gets built is an absolute travesty.

    And every single local politician in the land who fights against those buildings will be lauded by their constituents and get more votes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,878 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Of course we are not building enough. FG stopped building altogether for years. I agree with high density construction. Do it. Change the planning laws to get it done. Fast track planning objection processing. Fcuk the NIMBY TDs. Whatever it takes, this is an emergency. Stop announcing big "Housing for All" plans with zero substance. Hit your targets. Try something to prevent our young tradesmen emigrating. Maybe tax incentives. Whatever. Resource ABP and planning offices asap. All we hear is "we are throwing "billyuns" at the problem" over and over and over. Treat it like the Covid emergency, they were well able to bring in statutory instruments to lock us all down.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,787 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I don't disagree with much of this

     FG stopped building altogether for years

    I couldn't care less who builds. I think the private sector will happily build enough if we give them the scenario to do it

    Change the planning laws to get it done

    They are trying, albeit far too late. It is not easy

    Fcuk the NIMBY TDs

    100% agree. Councillors are the bigger problem in the grand scheme of the thing though. The biggest issue is that THIS IS ALL OF THEM. Almost every last politician without fail is a nimby, because the people who live there are their voters.


    I agree with the gist of your point. But I also think that the population are filthy hypocrites who rally against any development as soon as it is near them. We can sit here and complain about politicians all day (and they are clearly not without blame), but the reality is that it is not an easy solution unless you are willing to piss people off. Which is difficult - though I would argue if done correctly can be beneficial in the long run. There is no incentive for DCC councillors to allow a high density residential block. The utter shitshow around the St Anne's development is the perfect example.

    I have zero issue with someone thinking that a new government is needed. My problem is that we are going to be in the same place in 5 years because literally nothing any opposition party has put forth solves a single one of these problems. I am frustrated that we are incentivising the growth of this problem by our actions. There is no point in a 50 year old in Rathgar complaining that his kids can't live in the city when he also doesn't want a mid-rise building built nearby because it will bring transient occupants and destroy the character of the neighourhood.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Yes everyone is emigrating according to you :-)

    "property ladder" f**k we are back in 2005





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,441 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Your post is full of contradictions.

    If, as you claim, the state can entice workers to the construction industry with job security, that means that building homes will cost more to the State, which means that they won't be affordable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,253 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    Not in the slightest. Job security doesn't necessarily cost more, it just means they will have work when the next downturn comes.

    And even if it did cost more in terms of labour, labour only makes up a fraction of today's house prices.

    When the government hands over 514k for a 2 bedroom social home, as it does now, how much of that 514k do you think is labour?

    https://www.independent.ie/regionals/dublin/dublin-news/dublin-city-council-overpaid-by-40pc-to-build-social-homes-report-finds/42345317.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,253 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    I've had a look at some recent forums and job listing for apprentices. No evidence of any substantial payment above rates.

    Some mentioned 3rd or 4th year apprentices might be able to negotiate a little more.

    There's also an 80euro weekly lodging rate if you have to work away from home, that might have covered flatshare ten or fifteen years ago, not a hope these days.

    So 7 euros per hour plus 80 if working away from home for 1st years, and this in a housing 'emergency'.

    Post edited by MegamanBoo on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,441 ✭✭✭✭blanch152




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