Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Ukraine did not attack Russia and kidnap Russians and hold them hostage in Ukraine so it's a different situation completely.

What Israel are doing now would be akin to Ukraine repeatedly bombing Moscow's suburbs, killing many thousands of Russian civilians but claiming they are merely doing so as an act of "self defence" (note how they have never once targeted Russian civilians in an attack).

The situations are very similar, just not in the ways you expect. Ukraine's "crime" is that it seeks to continue existing. Russia considers the very existence of Ukraine to be casus-belli. Groups like Hamas, PIJ and much of the Muslim world see Israel the same way that Russia sees Ukraine - a nation whose very existence is justification for a war of extermination.

By the way, Russia and Hamas are allies with deep ties. And the 7th of October is Putler's birthday.

Israel, like Ukraine, considers its every move as necessary to ensure its continued existence against hostile invaders who want to wipe them out, take all of their territory and subjugate or exterminate their people. That's what both countries are facing.

100% - if they could identify clear military targets in Moscow that posed a threat to Ukraine, they would be well within their rights to attack them.

The problem with Gaza city though is that everyone is living on top of each other and it's nearly impossible to attack Hamas without killing a load of innocent Gazan civilians in the process (something which is expressly forbidden under international law and regarded as a war crime, no matter what or where the target in the city)

Again I think people are missing the point. Under international law countries have certain rights under self defense. However if they are an occupying force (like Russia & Israel) they can't claim self defense.

I guess in a normal setting if someone broke into your house, you can attack the intruder and claim self defense, however the intruder doesn't get to beat you up and claim self defense.

Israel is not going to stop until all the Palestinians have been forced out or they are forced to stop. That's the way i see it, what the outcome is i don't know.

Has Palestine a right to self-defence?

They can't attack a Hamas launching site and kill 100 Gazan civilians in the process. That's when they are straight into the area of illegality and war crimes.

So Israel are still currently robbing land illegally in the West Bank and killing Palestinians.

And we are meant to be surprised and outraged when Hamas fight back??

This is the guy that was involved in the killing of the Swedish diplomat by the terrorist group Lehi. He went on to become Prime minister of Israel. Some of his supporters tried to paint the murder victim as an anti semite- despite him having saved Jewish people from the Nazis. Yitzhak never apologised, and some of the far right nationalists are glad he was killed.

These are the same type of people that are in government now in Israel. I see Gantz has called for Bibi to go. He probably wants to keep the war going as long as possible just so he can stay in power.

RTE

France calls West Bank Israeli settler violence 'policy of terror'

France has condemned violence by Israeli settlers in the West Bank, calling it a "policy of terror" aimed at displacing Palestinians and urging Israeli authorities to protect Palestinians from the violence.

That is not clear. If the Gazan civilians have been placed in the danger zone by Hamas recklessly locating the launching site at a hospital or school, then it is Hamas who are committing the war crime.

You don't get a free pass to lob rockets at your enemies by putting your rocket launchers in school playgrounds and hospital car parks.

Your first paragraph is irrelevant. If Israel decides to attack a piece of weaponry knowing full well it will probably kill 100 Gazan civilians in the process, they are committing a war crime. They can't use the 'it's all the other guys fault' excuse.

Launch sites sure. Occupy Moscow and tell millions of people they have to move to China no.

It is not irrelevant, it is precisely the issue to be considered under international law. And Israel can use the "it's all the other guy's fault" excuse in international law. If Israel has previously warned civilians to move away (it has) and if Israel attacks when there are less numbers of civilians, then Israel is acting in accordance with international law, and it is Hamas who have committed a war crime against their own people by putting them in harm's way. Civilians die in wars, that is the terrible and horrific reality.

As I said already, you don't get a free pass to lob rockets at your enemies by putting your rocket launchers in school playgrounds and hospital car parks. If you do that, you are committing a war crime against your own people, as Hamas appear to have been doing.

Just imagine the horrific nature of the cynicism. You put your rocket launchers into school playgrounds and hospital car parks, and you endanger your own citizens. You are betting on one of two outcomes, the Israelis don't bomb your rocket launchers and you are free to keep killing Israeli civilians as Hamas have been doing continuously with their rocket launchers, or alternatively, the Israelis bomb your rocket launchers and your own civilians die, but you win the propaganda war through your patsies in the West like SF/PBP condemning Israel. Either way, your only target is civilians, 50% chance of them being your own. That is the nature of Hamas, no consideration for anyone, not even their own people.