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N5 - Ballaghaderreen to Scramoge [construction to commence shortly]

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  • Registered Users Posts: 769 ✭✭✭DumbBrunette


    Interesting but rather whiney article about the potential impact of the new road on local businesses, from shop owner in Ballaghaderreen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,149 ✭✭✭prunudo


    I thought it was well recognised that bypassed towns thrive when the traffic leaves. Locals can now come and go in peace, parking is freed up, easier to access and safer for pedestrians to walk around.

    I certainly never had any desire to stop in Ballaghadreen, couldn't wait till that town was bypassed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 659 ✭✭✭Westernview


    I think there is some truth in something I heard said that any town/village that dies after a bypass was dying anyway. Most places adapt and take advantage in whatever way they can.



  • Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭Norteño


    Sure, he got his mug in the local rag, that'll keep him in inane conversation with the old dears in his shop for a while.



  • Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭AgriLad


    Heard the same that Wills have the contract, with a tender around the €250 million mark.

    I believe this will be one of if not the biggest job they’ve undertaken themselves, as its not a JV.



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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,356 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    It crossed my mind during the week.

    There was only 1 tender for this was there? Given how standard Irish contracts for roads have gone in the last few years it may explain the high price if there's a lot of contingency built in

    Good news that the M28 will be an NEC contract and hopefully they will be used going forward.

    A pity about the high price as the usual suspects will be waving the "inflation" costs flag now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,470 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    It's a 25% increase versus the original tendered price. That's a big increase, but I can see how contractors would be wary.

    Hopefully there's some kind of reward for coming in under budget built in to that pricing..



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,356 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    The tender for the 2021 contract by Roadbridge was €132m



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,911 ✭✭✭paulbok


    And I thought the re-tender amount was around €194m?

    Nearly double now.

    Add that 250m to what was paid out on preliminary works, design and land acquisition and the 450m bandied about in the media the other week makes more sense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 401 ✭✭Mullinabreena


    Ballaghaderreen was dying long before it was bypassed.



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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,915 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Petrol stations and convenience stores that rely on passing drivers can suffer from a bypass; as could old fashioned hotels/pubs that live off flogging carveries to salesmen. All other businesses should thrive from the town actually being accessible; and there are very few cases of a place really suffering from a bypass.

    But the petrol station etc owners are going to influential due to employing peoples kids, sponsoring sports teams etc and get to massively overstate the impact to the area.

    Where I live lost three petrol stations - one has since been replaced beside its site though - and it may have had a negative impact on the run down dump hotel that eventually closed (but there's a new, vastly bigger, 4* hotel opened since). Nobody else missed the traffic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 401 ✭✭Mullinabreena


    While Ballaghaderreen is bypassed you probably have more HGV going to the dairy plant and animal feed plant so it never really got that bypass feel. The other petrol station in the town adopted to the bypass and seems to be doing quite well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,767 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The preliminary works, design and land acquisition were all paid for several years ago, therefore fixed, and before the recent rapid inflation. They might amount to half the original tendered sum, retendering costs would be small beer, in the tens of thousands.

    If €250m new tender price, plus lets generously say €100m for design/planning/land, there's still €100m in the difference. Some of that must be the public realm works but there would still be a fair chunk left after that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,326 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    I've been visiting Balla for decades. The town just gets sadder and more depressing every year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 659 ✭✭✭Westernview


    Just after reading this article in the Business Post from the end of September. Interesting to read the part where TII has recommended that the government move away from fixed price contracts to reduce project costs. Can someone explain this to me? What system could they move to that would control the costs better?

    Transport Infrastructure Ireland, which is delivering the new project with Roscommon county council, has previously called on the government to move away from the fixed price contracts for roads like the N5 Ballaghaderreen to Scramoge road. Peter Walsh, its chief executive, told the Oireachtas Transport committee last year that fixed price contracts could only work in times of low inflation.

    “We had a decade of low inflation and in those circumstances it worked. Where we have inflation volatility the way we have right now, it will not work,” he said.

    (The full article can be read for free by registering an email account)

    https://www.businesspost.ie/article/cost-of-west-of-ireland-road-upgrade-soars-by-eye-watering-e250-million-in-three-years/



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭spakman


    Ballagh, not Balla - unless you're taling about the small town between Castlebar and Claremorris.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,767 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The inflation issue is that under the Irish government contracts, it is extremely difficult for the contractor to get more money due to price changes in labour or materials. Tenderers are expected to price in possible inflation for the duration of the project. This means tenderers have to take a punt but for large projects taking multiple years in particular, the current situation means that contractors are assuming continued high inflation so that they don't get stung. They have to price based on what they know today but it could be six months later before the contract is awarded and the prices hold until the works are completed.

    The fixed price nature of the contracts means that the state doesn't get anything back if the assumed level of inflation doesn't materialise, or if prices drop during the project. There are options for price variations in the government contracts but they are complicated and become a battle to get anything.



  • Registered Users Posts: 659 ✭✭✭Westernview


    Ok thanks. That explains it. So from what yoi say the contracts are weighted in favour of the contractor, unless inflation turns out to be above what was estimated. Can the contractor make claims in that case or is it fixed in every sense?



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,259 ✭✭✭markpb


    Fixed price contracts are not weighed in favour of the contractor - they take on the risk. If the project proceeds as expected or if inflation is lower than expected, they will make additional profit. If the project costs more than expected, they make less profit or a loss. The state knows exactly how much it must pay so there is no risk but potentially it will overpay.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,767 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The contracts aren't weighted in favour of the contractor, the opposite in fact. It isn't that long ago that contractors were questioning if ot was worth taking on state projects given the degree of risk which rested with them and the level of competition meant that that risks couldn't adequately be priced in.

    It's really just a perfect storm of factors now which has turned the tables. For these big projects, there are very few contractors capable of undertaking them so competition is no (or possibly non-existent as seems to be the case with this project). Where the project is going to take two years or more, inflation is obviously a big concern.

    Tenderers therefore need to make sure they are covered with their pricing and lack of competition means they know they can be generous in pricing.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,372 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    Don't know why this scheme isn't a dual carriageway like the Dromod/Rooskey scheme or Castlebaldwin/Collooney road



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,911 ✭✭✭paulbok


    If it was a dual carriageway, then Tarmonbarry would have to be bypassed which would add a fair bit to the cost. And it would need the Mullingar to Longford DC built to be effective.

    Though it is crazy some overtaking lanes every so often weren't added.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,356 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Volumes are far too low to justify a dual carriageway. It’s one of the quietest sections of the national primary network.

    Similar low trafficked sections of the national primary network are getting minor realignments (the N16 for example). This would’ve been done in small bite size chunks but for the Rathcrogan issue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 659 ✭✭✭Westernview


    Pure guesswork then for contractors. Potentially though they could do well if the level of inflation budgeted for turns out lower but that would mean the contractor assuming high levels initially.

    Even so I thought that TII had a preference nowadays for a minimum of Type 2 DC over SC for all new primary routes as it provides a far safer road?. The Greens may scuppered that approach.

    From what I've heard the alternating 2+1 overtaking lane system is not that much safer than a SC although I think the 2+1 spec has separating median barriers nowadays.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭spakman


    It's eastern start point is Scramogue outside Strokestown, so Tarmonbarry doesn't come into it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,911 ✭✭✭paulbok


    What I meant was if the new Scramogue to Frenchpark road was upgraded to DC, then to get the full benefit of doing so, and avoid a bottleneck, it would have to be extended to the Longford bypass ( and eventually the new Longford - Mullingar DC) and therefore a new crossing over the Shannon to bypass Tarmon would be needed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,979 ✭✭✭pgj2015




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,767 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Yes tendering for any contract type apart from direct reimbursement is essentially guesswork for contractors, hence why the guys pricing are called estimators. The larger the project and the longer the timescale involved, the more guesswork involved.

    Road type is dictated by a few factors but volumes of traffic is the main one. TII don't get to have a preference, they need to justify the design and cost. Some posters here love to talk about Type 2 DC over SC for primary roads but that kind of broad stroke approach isn't possible.



  • Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭lotusm


    I wonder if there any chance that wills will break ground before the end of the the year ?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭hondar


    Wills are in the process of putting in there main compound on the R369. Between frenchpark and Elphin.



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