Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

brickster69 · 26-10-2023 11:41AM

Japan slowly rowing back, one of many soon i think

https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1717393553062826176

jmreire · 26-10-2023 11:41AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284174#Comment_121284174

Labelling other posters comments as stupid, to my mind says a lot more about you than it does about me, and not seeing the point I was trying to make proves it. And neither am I saying that using the atomic bomb was right or wrong, just making the point that there was two sides to the story. Perhaps, if you saw the results of a bombing, you might have a different opinion too? But one thing is for sure, the sheer destructive force of the Atomic bomb and MAD doctrine it espoused, has meant that it has never been used since. And only a madman (Putin? ) would consider using it now. Had the US not bombed Japan and ended the war, what would the death toll have been? Any comment on that? If Israel did not have the ability to defend itself, would it even exist today? To me, I don't make the difference between burnt and mutilated Men, Women and Children, be they Israeli or Palestine. They all look the same in death. They're wrong, both sides, and I've seen up close and personal what happens when a City, Town or village is Bombed. It sure as hell isn't pretty. Try holding a 7 or 8 year old kid while doctors are working on her with out anesthetics.

As for the "yeah, maybe people should think twice about waging wars"??? Dream on.. men have been killing each other since as long as they've walking the earth. Only difference is that over time, they have improved it to the extent that they now have the capacity to completely destroy all life on the planet. Any ideas on how to change that?.

Raoul Duke III · 26-10-2023 11:42AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285724#Comment_121285724

There is a very clear difference:

Russia attacked Ukraine, without any provocation
Israel was brutally attacked by Hamas, with hundreds of civilians murdered in barbaric fashion. Israel is responding to that initial attack by Hamas.

The two are very different.

Long Sean Silver · 26-10-2023 11:45AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285617#Comment_121285617

i agree both sides are desperate to shape the narrative, but the Israeli propaganda machine is on a different level. they are hugely resourced and highly sophisticated, but as i said previously the whole world can see what they are doing in Gaza. people aren't fools. we know what is right and what is wrong.

i see very little difference between what Netty is doing and what Pootin is doing in Ukraine. a few months ago the Russians targeted a pizza restaurant in Kramatorsk. Later on Wednesday, the Russian defence ministry reported that the target they hit was a “temporary command post” of the Ukrainian army.

This is EXACTLY what the IDF claims to be doing in Gaza. Ya sure they are trying to target Hamas operatives, but heck if a few dozen innocent Palestinian women & children are killed, well that's too bad.

Almost word for word from the Russian playbook. Both disgusting.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/27/deadly-russian-missile-strike-on-busy-pizza-restaurant-in-kramatorsk#:~:text=Four%20children%20were%20among%2011,eastern%20Ukrainian%20city%20of%20Kramatorsk.

Long Sean Silver · 26-10-2023 11:49AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285621#Comment_121285621

it's a bit like slagging off Thatcher as a war-mongering biatch and being called a misogynist. 😂

Tell me how · 26-10-2023 11:55AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285687#Comment_121285687

Can you point to some of such posts please. I'm not on here continuously, but have spent a number of hours at a time on the thread across various days and I can honestly say I haven't frequent examples of anti-Semitism. I'm sure there is some, but rampant implies it is very prevalent and what I've seen is a long way from that and more a case of one of posts from young accounts.

In the same way that Palestine does not equal Hamas, disapproval of Israel's action does not equal anti-Semitism.

brickster69 · 26-10-2023 11:57AM

Big discussion going on lads, you could have some bloke with a whistle like in a football match.

https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1717489108648341653

Ash.J.Williams · 26-10-2023 12:03PM

It's hamas that did this to Palestine not Israel

Long Sean Silver · 26-10-2023 12:09PM

Well done Spain!

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/spains-prime-minister-calls-for-humanitarian-cease-fire-in-talks-with-israeli-counterpart/3029758#

to paraphrase Fr. Ted, "i hear you are an anti-semite now! how did you get into that sort of thing Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez?" 😮

Overheal · 26-10-2023 12:20PM

"Of the two dozen journalists who have died, 20 were Palestinian, three were Israeli and one was Lebanese. At least eight other journalists have been reported injured, while three others are believed missing or detained, according to the CPJ."

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/25/1208019720/journalist-deaths-gaza-israel-hamas

:(

26-10-2023 12:22PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285741#Comment_121285741

Some people are angrier at Israel for responding to the attack than they are about Hamas committing the attack to begin with.

It's a bizarre set of circumstances.

Tell me how · 26-10-2023 12:31PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285834#Comment_121285834

Not even Israel is claiming this.

That's how wide of the mark you are.

Red Silurian · 26-10-2023 12:31PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285741#Comment_121285741

Just to add

3. Russia-Ukraine war has very little to do with religion

4. Russia did ground invasion without a care to civilian lives

Furze99 · 26-10-2023 12:53PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282898#Comment_121282898

"If Hamas were to release the hostages, Israel would find it much harder to justify the actions currently being taken."

The problem with this is that Israel is not a normal state - it is filled with suspicion of and hatred towards their neighbours. I believe they would have absolutely no compunction in levelling a substantial part of the Gaza strip if and when they get the chance. They'd call it self defence and de militarising/ de nazifying whilst obliterating countless innocent & guilty people.

Thankfully the US seem to have some leverage and can pull on the collar.

Manic Moran · 26-10-2023 01:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284765#Comment_121284765

I don't speak for everyone else, but there is a difference between saying 'no war crimes have been committed' and denying that 'X is conclusive evidence of a war crime being committed.' If something may or may not be lawful, the general standard we tend operate under in the West is 'innocent until proven guilty', and we as Internet observers are absolutely not in a position to make that determination since we lack all relevant information in these instances.

As for how it would work in practice, the good news is that in a modern context there probably are records kept which may be perused at some time in the long term and the advantage or lack thereof could thus be determined. It's highly unlikely, however, that such records will be made publicly available in the near future. In ye olden dayes, it would have to be proven by the prosecution. However, there haven't been any particular war crimes trials which have required such a thing since the laws of war were changed after WWII, when dropping bombs on civilians was just part of doing war, so the question right now seems to not have a demonstrated answer.

Raoul Duke III · 26-10-2023 01:17PM

Tom Friedman making some great points in the NYT today. To paraphrase (my notes in brackets):

Netanyahu is a bad actor - what Israel needs is a PM that would declare an end to West Bank settlement expansion and to overhaul relations with the PA, such that it can credibly govern a post-Hamas Gaza. (to me, these seem very far from being realised)
Israel can only build proper legitimacy with its allies if it stops annexing West Bank land (unarguable)
Israel is fighting a fully-fledged war in Gaza against Hamas - Hamas still has residual capacity to launch rockets daily and even to launch a seaborne attack on Israel on Thursday. He notes that its terrifying to see the resources Hamas has devoted to building its military capability versus Gaza's evident human poverty. (this is something that doesn't get enough attention)
Netanyahu's coalition actually helps Hamas - by behaving in ways that actually help unify the various anti-Israeli fronts. This includes the restrictions they placed on Temple Mount, putting harsher conditions on Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails and planning an acceleration of settlement building (can't argue with that, Netanyahu is pandering to the right wingers in his cabinet - the quid pro quo is him staying out of jail)
The normalisation of relations with Arab countries was proceeding further - the Saudi deal would have been the crowing achievement of that
Iran is key and is the ultimate bad actor in the region. It controls 4 failed states through its proxies; Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Yemen.

key quote:

To reduce this incredibly complex struggle of two peoples for the same land to a colonial war is to commit intellectual fraud. Or as the Israeli writer Yossi Klein Halevi put it in The Times of Israel on Wednesday: “To blame the occupation and its consequences wholly on Israel is to dismiss the history of Israeli peace offers and Palestinian rejection. To label Israel as one more colonialist creation is to distort the unique story of the homecoming of an uprooted people, a majority of whom were refugees from destroyed Jewish communities in the Middle East.”

But here’s what’s also intellectually corrupt: buying into the Israeli right-wing settler narrative, now being spread far and wide inside Israel, that Hamas violence is so savage it clearly has nothing to do with anything settlers have done — so more settlements are just fine.

(I agree - beware the simplifiers)

My view: This is a territorial dispute between two people claiming the same land which needs to be divided as equitably as possible. Such a compromise is the cornerstone for any success against Hamas. So, if you are for a two-state solution, you are my friend and if you are against a two-state solution, you are not my friend.

Overheal · 26-10-2023 01:19PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285906#Comment_121285906

Nebulous complaint. Some people are angry that Israel is open to criticism

Overheal · 26-10-2023 01:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286063#Comment_121286063

Agreed

https://youtu.be/RBTXMt6A9yI?si=FMWtGlTxBB-k9A5T

Raoul Duke III · 26-10-2023 01:27PM

So here's a question: the land that Israel has annexed\stolen\grabbed (insert your own verb of choice) in the West Bank. They are mostly populated by religious Haredim settlers.

Besides the obvious political blowback internally in Israel if they were to be handed to the PA as the price of peace, what value do they add to the State of Israel? e.g. are there any huge economic benefits that giving them up would be folly?

Overheal · 26-10-2023 01:27PM

And now: a new weird

https://techcrunch.com/2023/10/25/roblox-palestine-protest/

Long Sean Silver · 26-10-2023 01:29PM

posters here, some through ignorance, some intentionally, are confusing criticism of Israel (as represented by their Govt.) and the IDF war crimes, as being antisemitic.

the 2 are not the same. i have tried to explain/educate these posters without much luck. indeed may Jewish/Israeli citizens are openly critical of their Govt's actions. are they antisemitic too?

indeed the extent to which these posters bandy around the term, antisemitic has lost much of it's potency, and is now little more than a cliche to score points and/or to stifle debate.

For decades, the Israeli government has used the accusation of anti-Semitism as a way to shield itself from any criticism. Anyone who dares to call into question the continued military occupation of millions of Palestinians, the jailing without trial of political dissidents, the destruction of civilian homes, or any of the many other crimes that the Israeli government commits on a regular basis, is quickly labeled an anti-Semite.

https://peoplesworld.org/article/under-israeli-government-standards-any-criticism-of-its-policies-is-anti-semitism/

Beasty · 26-10-2023 01:30PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285341#Comment_121285341

Threadbanned

Igotadose · 26-10-2023 01:31PM

...

missed the threadban

Nermal · 26-10-2023 01:33PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281655#Comment_121281655

This post deserves a quote.

It was followed by 15 pages of morally bankrupt false equivalence between Hamas and the IDF, between Hamas and the US in Hiroshima & Nagasaki, or between Hamas and the Allies in Dresden.

There is, of course, no such equivalence.

One side exalts and triumphs in cruelty, murder, torture, rape and barbarity.

The other does not.

BorneTobyWilde · 26-10-2023 01:40PM

The UK didn't bomb the hell out of I.R.A strongholds or safehouses , killing all those within the blast zone, they did their due-diligence , and tracked down those responsible of crimes, the Israeli army come across as the laziest in history, clueless bunch, whac a mole approach. Their soldiers act like spoilt brats, they know that can riddle a kid with bullets for throwing a stone, and they won't face any punishment.

scottser · 26-10-2023 01:41PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121278614#Comment_121278614

i would imagine all gay people in israel are concerned that their rights are being systematically targeted by the right-wing and theocratical elements of their government, notwithstanding israel's historical support of LGBT rights. there's been a year-on-year rise in reported incidents of homophobia since lockdown.

odyssey06 · 26-10-2023 01:44PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286185#Comment_121286185

The IRA weren't openly firing mass numbers of rockets from heavily populated areas though where they?

The British Army were patrolling those streets daily. The British authorities controlled the ports, controlled the borders.

It's not remotely the same situation, so your attacks on the Israeli army just rebound on you and are self discrediting.

Odhinn · 26-10-2023 01:44PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286146#Comment_121286146

Torture is legal in Israel........

boetstark · 26-10-2023 01:46PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285982#Comment_121285982

Would you blame them considering the constant barrage of threats to their very existence.

Even a bloody head cleric from Palestine went to Hitler during ww2 requesting assistance in wiping out jewish population of the area. This was even before Israel was established.

Palestinians have gotten every opportunity to create a life of peace for themselves in a Palestinian homeland and they have f##ked it up for themselves over and over again.

And we have the drivel of society here in europe with their stupid woke rubbish.

How much is a country and a people expected to take before deciding to take out this cancerous threat once and for all.

I am far from an advocate of violence on any race of people but if Israel stop now. I guarantee that this whole sorry cycle of tit for tat violence is never going to end.

facehugger99 · 26-10-2023 02:02PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285834#Comment_121285834

..

Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

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