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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,506 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    "getting beaten in the knockout stages of Europe consistently"

    That's an interesting spin on 'last minute of the final' I guess.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,605 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    There is but out of the 20 teams in AIL 1A/1B only 3 are Ulster.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,034 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    Yea there is prospects but I'm saying "crisis/mini-crisis" in the context of developing depth/realising that talent.

    i.e. playing them in 6N & giving them enough experience to finally perform in a WC - getting to a semi-final (imagine) and hopefully a final.

    Im not advocating the EJ Wallaby method but significant change has to happen otherwise it will be the same old story.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,932 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    That potential back 3 doesn't have much pace. I'd like to see Baloucoune get another look with Sexton or McCarthy breaking through.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,135 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Eh, Leinster lost out in the knockout stages of Europe for the last 5 years straight. I think that counts as 'consistently'

    If you want to gripe about only losing by a score last year, they only won by 3 points from a 78th minute penalty against Racing the last time they won....

    image.png


    Ban billionaires



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,135 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Anyway, the Point I was actually making, is that if we want to win knockout rugby, there needs to be a new approach nationally. What almost worked in the past, is not likely to work in the future. Systems have evolved to counter the Irish/Leinster gameplan. Yeah, weaker teams can get steamrolled in pool stages, but when it comes to the knockout stages, there is a blueprint for how to beat us with the right players.

    Ban billionaires



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 34,122 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    This is not really true though. Leinster would not have lost in May if Ryan had stayed on the pitch and in the end they lost by one point when their backup prop conceded a red card while we were on their line. That does not exactly scream "the system is broken".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,511 ✭✭✭Wegians89


    Ryan, Porter and Stockdale burst onto the scene pretty much straight from the u20s team that got to the final. That same team also had Keenan, JOB, Connors and even Shane Daly and Deegan who all came in at various stages getting a range of caps.

    Im sure as one of the recent u20s will have a similar impact to the Ryan’s and Porters but others might only make their debut 2 / e years out from the next World Cup. When their ready they’ll be ready. Don’t think we need to rush it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,398 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Dan Sheehan wasn't a standout at u20 level iirc. He was always good, but I'm not sure anyone could have predicted that he'd be one of the best hookers in the world just 5 years later.

    Wegians is right. Players will be ready when they're ready. On another note, there's also an issue with attempting to accelerate a young players development when they aren't ready. Could damage their potential long term.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 5,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    There is youths ruqby but its much weaker than the other provinces.. the schools pipeline isnt dead in the water.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,398 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    My kingdom for a Scott Fardy type. A hard bastard that is awful to play against whether he starts at second row or blindside flanker. Similar to POM really, but taller so he could switch between the two when necessary. Or at least he could at Leinster.

    He's another player who wasn't on anyone's radar for years. Made his Australia debut at 28.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 5,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    thats a different issue. clubs scene wquestion was more in reference to u14-18 than to adult level.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 459 ✭✭conquestscarer


    Yep, as a Leinster fan I found that others treated Lancaster as a genius developer who had zero faults in his game. He was very tactically naïve IMO, our tactics never changed and if we lost the kicking battle we had zero answers. The gameplan of being the quickest around the ruck and never competing at the breakdown looks very outdated IMO. Great against lower quality opposition who can just be blasted through but with teams capable of building phases it didn't work. I wonder if Leinster Bulk up slightly and that indirectly means Ireland are abit more aggressive at ruck time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,885 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Except in the final, they smashed La Rochelle and stole loads of ball on the deck



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 459 ✭✭conquestscarer


    The tackle count of the two teams would dispute that I'd say.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭Mr Tickle


    That's one thing I'm nervous about in terms of replacing POM. Baird is a great player but he seems very nice.

    Like at no point while watching him play have I ever been afraid that he would bite me. And that's an important part of rugby



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,398 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Lancaster and Leinster absolutely adapted their game plan to combat La Rochelle. They became more direct in their phase play and moved towards more dangerous strike moves.

    They also focussed even more at clearing out faster and more physically. It got to the point where you'd regularly read accusations online about James Ryan being a dangerous player for his clear outs.

    Leinster's loss to La Rochelle last season was more about a failure in exit strategy and not competing at the lineout. Ryan going off after 30 minutes really damaged Leinster's hopes as well. He was playing out of his skin and was comfortably the best player on the pitch before his departure. Jenkins was a massive downgrade.

    The most damaging aspect of that loss was that it exposed faults in Leinster's game plan which hadn't been evident in any game up to then.

    Post edited by Clegg on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,398 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    I don't think things are too bad with Ireland. Won't argue that this World Cup cycle was our best chance of making a final, but we've still a very talented core group that will carry us on to 2027.

    Porter, Sheehan, Doris, Keenan and Hansen are all in their mid 20's and are some of the best in the world at their position. We've then another set of younger players who could make a huge impact with more development. Jamie Osborne, Joe McCarthy etc. I'm only mentioning Leinster players here because they're the ones I know the most about. And a younger group again with the Grand Slam winning U20's.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    But you forget that La Rochelle is not French, like full of French players. There's boks, Ozzie 's and even an Irishman. It's just not the same as getting beat by a pure French side.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 459 ✭✭conquestscarer


    Ah come on strike moves and the like can't be called tactics. They're a completely different aspect of the game. The game plan had been there since last year, win the kicking battle and then keep the ball. We focussed on all the filler leading up to it with being more "direct" etc etc but the way the exit strategy was handled, which lost us the game the year before was atrocious. We repeated the same mistakes of playing to their fullbacks strengths and not exiting the ball properly.

    This isn't hindsight either, I posted the following 7 days before the final in May. The narrative about the 2022 final was that La Rochelle slowed down all our rucks, that's the context for the initial paragraph.

    "rewatching the Leinster La Rochelle game from last year there was only 3(!!!!!) Instances of our ball being slowed down by La Rochelle in rucks. We actually were very very effective at ruck time and slowed down their ball more effectively than they slowed ours down. Of the three times they slowed down our ball in their own 22, 2 led to penalties, which ended up as 6 points for us. Where they really got us was in defence where we didn't compete with their linespeed with smart pick and goes around the corner or the occasional one out pass to keep their defence honest. Think the whole offence has been designed to counteract the linespeed this year, we developed the 5m tap-and-go moves to assist ourselves on their line as well, I hope it works out.


    Where they really won the game was in the kicking game and in the scrum. We really really struggled at scrum time last year, we were obliterated by Toulouse the round before but still managed the shocking scrum well against Toulouse. Against La Rochelle they attacked on every single attacking scrum and won penalties on most( Barnes should have given us a penalty on one of their advantages for Antonio collapsing). It seems our scrum has improved a lot this year compared to last year, but I hope Porter and Furlong are ready for a long 70-minute shift, because that is what we will need from them. We also had no answer at Maul time at it led to a way too easy finish from them 5 yards out.

    Our kicking game was shocking that day as well, I'm not sure if it was the weather that fatigued us or the type of kicks we were doing but our kick chase was AIL level stuff at times. This was especially important to the game because La Rochelle's biggest weakness is attacking from their own half. They are a one out running team and just play territory. They'll take the 3 points against them all day because they're superb at getting territory back after a kick-off. Think this meant our game plan of going for 3 was horrific tactically as we found it impossible to regain territory."

    What did we do after the initial 15 minutes, went for **** posts. That was unforgiveable IMO. The clear tactic of maintaining territory and drawing penalty after penalty was the way to go. It might not have mattered anyway but I think Lancaster and Co didn't react to oppositions. It's also why I am always ready to the send the first dig at him.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,614 ✭✭✭techdiver


    Each World Cup we delude ourselves with thinking we have great squad depth. This world cup has shown that up again. Having the first 15 play all games is not a sign of squad depth and the fact that the loss of Cian Healy has potentially been the difference in us going out of this world cup is stark.

    We also need to sort out our scrum in general because whatever we are doing is not working. The key for Ireland over the next cycle is to build proper depth in all areas. Our scrum has been a problem area for a long time now and got showed up on Saturday. We have zero depth in the props which contributes to this problem. Add to that the fact that Furlong is a shadow of his former self and in my opinion won't make the next world cup. You need at least 3 international class props both sides to complete at a world cup. We are good at hooker with both Sheehan and Kelleher both young. Herring will need to be replaced though.

    I don't know what has gone wrong with the lineout but it was particularly bad all tournament. The stats don't even tell the full story. I think statistically we only lost 1 lineout on Saturday but so many more were messy and didn't give us a platform. One of our own lineouts led to a New Zealand try a few plays later.

    If we had a functioning scrum and lineout on Saturday we easily win that game and that is the frustrating thing.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 34,122 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    We have zero depth at prop because there are not enough good enough props in Ireland. There is nothing the Ireland coach can do about that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,398 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    I actually don't think our scrum is that much of an issue. Was listening to the Demented Mole podcast this week and they made the point that the penalties we conceded where when we attacked the New Zealand put in rather than soaking the pressure.

    It was a tactic to try and disrupt their attacking platform. It obviously didn't work, but I don't think the scrum is a major area of concern either. Functioned well enough against a South African side that was always going to out to try and dominate. Even if we did concede a few penalties we weren't completely dominated either.

    We clearly made the decision years ago to map our strategy round an athletic front 5 that could play a minimum of 60 minutes every game. We prioritised athleticism and handling skills above destructive scrummaging. It was the right call, I think. Especially because we don't have a Malherbe type of destructive scrummager yo begin with anyway.



  • Posts: 12,836 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    We consistently concede more scrum penalties than we win against the top sides, not sure how that can be viewed as anything other than an issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,614 ✭✭✭✭phog


    I suppose it's not an issue until it is an issue.

    I remember Munster being destroyed at scrum time in an away game, I think we conceded two penalty tries off the scrum, we won the game so was it an issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 442 ✭✭Tommysocks11


    That's talking crap, yes our front 5 are more athletic but they need to be better at the basics of scrummaging, 3 penalties conceded by porter last week was criminal, our line out very poor all tournament too and when our set pieces are so bad u are fighting an uphill battle straight away



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,872 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    northampton away in the heineken cup, 2012 i think, absolutely hockeyed them even though the scrum was in tatters. zebo got a hat trick



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,885 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    How much of our issues at scrum are simply due to Porter's terrible technique? It's been what, 3 years? And he still hasn't corrected some very basic issues. Bind too short, elbow down, outside shoulder turning in and pulling his opponent's jersey down.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,566 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    He’s not had a straight forward path position wise. Been back at LH for 2 years (was selected in the 2021 Lions squad as a TH). Think he switched to TH from LH in 2018 or thereabouts having payed underage rugby at LH. I suspect we’ll see him moved back to TH if we can bring a decent LH through.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    At loose head there's Boyle, athletic with a good motor. He's put on some weight and his technique at scrum is very sound. He just needs experience. There's also Milne! He missed an entire season through injury, so his development isn't where it should be. Paddy McCarthy looks a savage. Still very young. I think Loughman could cement his place this year, if he continues his Munster form from last season. He's certainly big enough.

    Tight head is probably a bigger problem. Furlong looking spent, Bealham is 32 and that leaves O'Toole. Coming up are Wilson from Ulster. I think he is the best prospect. There's also McGuire and Illo. I think Aungier could be an option. He's improved quite a bit over the last 2 seasons.

    4 years is a long time to develop players.



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