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Spain - Women World Cup Champions - 1 week later. (How not to manage a crises)

  • 26-08-2023 2:43pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,499 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    This time last week, the Spanish women's football team were preparing for the world cup final. Some ladies who weren't there but could have felt that they deserved to have been must have had very strong feelings about missing out.

    In 2022 15 players signed a letter saying the would no longer play for the national team while the coach Jorge Vidal was involved. They did this because of what they felt was unacceptable behavior and policies enforced by him towards the women on the team. Despite intervention by the Spanish Football Federation, 4 of the 15 refused to return and so they were not involved last week.

    And despite the team winning their first world cup, and the heartbreaking news that the father of the winning goal scorer had died just two days before the final and that she played without knowing this news, the players and their families got almost no time to bask in their glory and instead the last few days has been a circus around the behavior of the federation President in the aftermath of the teams victory. A circus that paints a grim picture as to the mindset of those in charge.

    Luis Rubiales is the President who was clearly jubilant in celebrating Spain's victory but he allowed his jubilation to get the better of him in how he reacted with the players immediately after they had received their medals. He forcibly pulled players to him and with one player in particular, Jenni Hermoso, he held her head in his hands and forcibly kissed her on the lips.

    This thread isn't necessarily about his actions in the specific moment. I thought they did cross a line but I do understand his jubilation and the culture to some degree could have explained this if he had reacted differently once it was clear his actions made the player uncomfortable.

    But its his action since then, and that of his federation that is particularly significant. Hermoso, was initially said to have consented to being embraced as she was and statements attributed to her were initially used by media to absolve the President. But it has since emerged that she never said what was attributed to her and not only that, but that her family were approached asking her to speak so as to say that she did not have an issue with how she was treated. In the last few days, Rubiales has been even more defiant that he did nothing wrong and despite appearing at a news conference where it was said he was going to resign, he vehemently refused to do so saying that the outcry was fake feminism. The federation apparently released a report where they had analyzed Hermoso's body language and said that it again supported the view that Rubiales behavior was acceptable and today the federation have announced that they are going to take legal action against the player claiming that she lied.

    Over 80 (including the current full women's squad from the world cup) women players have signed a letter saying that he has to go from his role. Some (small numbers) from the mens team have also said the same. Even FIFA (no strangers to prejudiced views) are looking at this with open mouths and have just now suspended Rubiales for 90 days.

    This whole episode is a very clear reminder of the challenges that exist for a lot of women, not only in the area of consent, but with respect to being treated fairly and respectfully. Could anyone believe that the complaints by the players last year about the environment under Vilda would have been handled correctly when this situation shows the mindset of the Federation? We recently saw reactions to professional football players being found not guilty of rape with the calls for the women who made the accusations to be prosecuted for false claims. Here, despite clear video evidence and the words of the person at the center of the incident as to how she felt, people are refusing to accept that their actions are a problem.

    The world cup was a massive success in terms of coverage, support, engagement (Ireland being a part of this success), its ending has left a very sour taste in the mouth as to how much more has to happen so that young girls everywhere can expect to participate and engage in a way does not leave them feeling unsafe or mistreated or that they have to exclude themselves rather than just shut up and accept it. This time last week, people were saying that Prince William refusing to travel to the final was not a good look, this week has blown that story out of the water even though it was noteworthy in its own right.



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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,499 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    TLDR - Link

    I’m well aware of how sensitive some people can get on here when it comes to the topic of ‘consent’ and any suggestion that the recipient of someones affection is not obliged to accept it without question.

    This is not specifically an Irish story but given previous Irish stories about our own senior womens football team wanting to be treated fairly, or an intercounty womens football panel not being comfortable with how they were being treated, it is entirely relevant to discuss it here.

    Anyone with any interest in a world where girls and women can compete in sports fairly and without being harassed or abused should be looking at this series of events and making sure they do whatever they can to ensure such events do not happen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,275 ✭✭✭nachouser


    I know it's well meant, but this'll just be the usual lads banging on about "woke."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭StevenToast


    It was a creepy move but the hysteria over it just highlights the world we live in right now.

    "Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining." - Fletcher



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,604 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    I wonder would have kissed the mens football team striker if it was them that won the World Cup. No he would not but yet he thinks he can kiss her just like that and say it was Spontanous, Mutual and consensual. Rubbish. Nothing can be that not unless your in a relationship with the person and have agreed each day to how their feeling.

    He is a disgusting creep. Him grapping his crouch on the same day just proves it. I hope he is sacked but it'd not sounding good according to the latest news.

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,372 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Anyone with any interest in a world where girls and women can compete in sports fairly and without being harassed or abused should be looking at this series of events and making sure they do whatever they can to ensure such events do not happen.


    I don’t know if it’s intended, but that isn’t limited to anyone solely with an interest in a world where girls and women can compete in sports fairly and without being harassed or abused. People do that already. It’s why cases like this are made public, precisely because people already don’t accept anyone being abused or harassed in sports.

    This particular example though is shìtty for a number of reasons besides just the obvious - there’s the fact that it’s overshadowed the many positives you’ve already highlighted, there’s the fact that it was inevitable that stories like this would come out as women’s participation in sports increases, and there’s the fact that it’s been going on under the radar in sports for decades and it’s only in recent years that people feel they are able to speak publicly about it.

    There’s the fact that people have to speak about their experiences before an inquiry or an investigation into the phenomenon happens that the behaviour can’t be just passed off or dismissed as part of being involved in sports, or that people are keeping silent because they fear repercussions or they won’t be able to continue participating in sports, and there’s the fact that parents are wary of enrolling their children in organised sports because they’re aware of these kinds of issues that went on when they were children participating in sports themselves and they had no power at the time to do anything about it.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    The Spanish FA went so far as to threaten legal action against the women for "lies". It is the rather unique scenario that has allowed FIFA to be seen as the good guys as they have now banned him for 90 day while they investigate.

    It is clearly an incredibly toxic environment and utterly shameful that he has destroyed their ability to enjoy their success. Clearly an odious runt of a man.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,032 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    The various football associations have a tendency to defend their own indefensible behavior to the hilt and claim interference if other parties make their opinions known. They will attempt to protect their own here again.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    From what I saw, he simply acted out of sheer elation from the team winning. Lots of players and managers act irrationally at times during moments of elation.

    Was it inappropriate and creepy? Yes.

    Does it warrant the saga that emerged from it? Probably not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,723 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Perhaps he could have simply apologised instead of putting out press released with invented comments from the player in the question absolving the president, and not threatened the players with legal action if they didn't stop talking about it.

    His utter refusal to take even an iota of responsibility for his clearly inappropriate action is a massive part of the problem.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,723 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,529 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    What an absolute clown....

    The Spanish football federation threatening to take Hermosa to court over her comments ffs.



  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Viviana Stocky Urinal


    This will be taught in all future public relations courses from here on in how not to handle an incident.

    The women's national team players are pissed off, the men's national team players are pissed off, his coaching staff resigned and he's still playing the victim.

    The fact that it took those f*cking ghouls at FIFA to step in tells you just how badly the whole thing was handled by Rubiales and the Spanish FA.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,467 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    He could probably have defused this with a strong apology to Hermoso and admission that he had overstepped the mark and saying he now really regrets it.

    Instead, he has gone in entirely the opposite direction and is even trying to claim that he is the victim in all this, not Hermoso (which would tend to confirm he actually was acting like a total jerk that day, nobody imagined it).



  • Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭Tavrin Callas



    I wonder would have kissed the mens football team striker

    I don't know this guy's history, but from what I do know of Spaniards, and from what I know of football celebrations in general, I think it's is very probable that he would have kissed a male player in the same way.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,100 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    It looks very like an orchestrated witch hunt to be fair. More to do with what has gone on with the management team in the past than this incident.

    Spanish football is fair shady at the best of times.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,721 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    He did apologise initially: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66568226


    I guess he thought/hoped that an apology might put and end to things, but when it started to look like that an apology might not be enough, and he might lose his job, he's decided to double down, and the Spanish football federation has, bizarrely, decided to back him to the hilt.

    Post edited by osarusan on


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    An orchestrated witch hunt that he had absolutely no way of avoiding I'm sure.

    It is simply the latest, most public act in a history of poor behaviour from those in power in the Spanish FA towards the women's team. You are talking about a team who already went on strike over the coach's behaviour and several of whom missed the world cup because of it. Eventually you get so brazen in your unacceptable behaviour it catches up to you thankfully.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,380 ✭✭✭sonofenoch


    Pinched from elsewhere and hard to argue against..


    I mean, it's a bit weird and I'd never consider doing it but then I'm not Latin and frankly find hugging people who aren't my partner or family, all a bit unnecessarily touchy and intimate.

     

    She didn't seem remotely arsed about it when it happened. None of the women did. Where was the obvious signs in their body language, of offence, disgust and hurt? You can fake words, pretend offence after the event but it's much less easy to fake body language. More to the point, why would you if you were bothered? I've always believe actions speak louder than words and just don't see a troubled woman here.

     

    Dunno. The guys seems like a bit of a prick but I can't shake this feeling that nobody was really hurt by this and that someone pointed out that you're supposed to be offended by this kind of carry on now and hey presto, we're here. It feels typically over inflated as an issue even if I agree that there was inappropriateness there.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    It is pretty easy to argue against.

    There were rules in place that the players could not lock their hotel rooms so that the coach could walk in to "check on them". If you objected you couldn't play for the team. 15 players staged a walkout, and 4 of them never came back, even to go to the World Cup.

    The President and coach are abusive men in positions of power and the women have had to adapt to defer to them or face consequences. They are used to this bullshit behaviour and being powerless about it, but now one of the men has let the power go to his head and abused it on an international stage in front of everyone and has no defence. The fact that anyone could defend him in the face of the clear video evidence is proof enough of the uphill battle they women would have faced to be taken seriously.

    Hopefully he is turfed out on his arse as soon as possible.

    Post edited by Podge_irl on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,467 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Orchestrated by whom? Hermoso said as soon as she was questioned on this she did not want the kiss or like it....that was immediately heading into sexual assault territory.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,100 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    You mean the world cup winning coach who their main gripe was he wasn't up for the job? Looks like the team excelled without them.

    Like I said Spanish football at political level is as shady as fúck.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,372 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    I've always believe actions speak louder than words and just don't see a troubled woman here.

    I know it’s not your argument, but the author says they always believe actions speak louder than words, yet they’re imagining that because of the way she didn’t act, they don’t see a troubled woman. They don’t say anything of the actions of Rubiales though.

    That they imagine body language is in any way difficult to fake just speaks for itself. Had she smacked him in the mouth for taking liberties, it’d be a completely different headline would be trending internationally where she would be made out to have overreacted - there would still be some way found to make out she is at fault for his actions! 😒



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    So what if it's shady? There is absolutely nothing complicated about this situation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,529 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    There are clear issues within the Spanish setup, I knew there had been a big push previously to get rid of Vilda before, as far as I know a big chunk of those players still won't play for Spain with him in charge. There was also clear disdain for him from some players at this tournament as well. So from what I can see they won the tournament in spite of him rather than really because of him. The fact so many staff now resigned would back that up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,372 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    It’s because Spanish football at political level is shady as fcuk that Rubiales didn’t even think his actions would be unwelcome, but this was just the straw that broke the camel’s back in terms of the amount of shyte that the women’s team had to endure just to be able to play for their national team.

    There’s no witch-hunt here, it’s more like this has been building up a long time, culminating in the events where Rubialie’s behaviour is defended by the organisation which oversees Spanish football, to the point where they would threaten to take legal action against a player claiming she is lying! That’s a witch-hunt, to ensure anyone else who thinks of opening their mouth should think twice about it and stay silent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭Tavrin Callas


    Had she smacked him in the mouth for taking liberties, it’d be a completely different headline would be trending internationally where she would be made out to have overreacted

    There is a way to show displeasure without going all out and smacking someone on the mouth!!! Look at Claire Foy's reaction to a knee touch by Adam Sandler here, where she gets her point across without smacking his mouth:

    (And for the record, I don't even blame Sandler in this instance, if you watch to the end you see he did the same with Dustin Hoffman).

    None of us can possibly know what was going on in the player's mind as she was kissed in a moment of celebration, but it certainly looks like she wasn't bothered by it at the time to me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,372 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    None of us can possibly know what was going on in the players mind at that particular moment is a fair point, but that’s your argument, so what it looks like to you doesn’t matter when the player later comes out themselves and says they didn’t welcome it, then that should remove any remaining doubt in your mind over whether or not they welcomed it.

    I’m fine with using a smack in the mouth as an example, it’s what I might have done in that situation, though I’ve never been in a situation where I had the world’s media on me and some asshole who didn’t give a fcuk kissed me on the mouth!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,529 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    This story also needs to be getting a lot more coverage. A head coach with allegations of sexual assault from 2022...and now seemingly another incident at the tournament.




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  • Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭Tavrin Callas


    I don't quite agree with you. In order for there to be a violation you need show what you're thinking. If you act like you're okay with something (a kiss in this case) then how is the other person to know if they have crossed a line? Regardless of what she was thinking inside, her body language (or verbal language) certainly wasn't protesting against a kiss. Nobody is a mind reader.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,372 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Nobody is arguing that anyone needs to be a mind reader? Nobody should have to say no I don’t want you to kiss me, it should be bloody obvious that it’s not appropriate in those circumstances. It’s not going to be obvious though to an idiot who takes liberties because it would never occur to him that it’s not appropriate, in the same sense that she was expected to behave and not make a fuss about it. That’s why I’m making the point that had she not thought about it and reacted by smacking him in the mouth, different headlines would be trending internationally.



  • Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭Tavrin Callas


    Again, I disagree. As I said in my first post, a combination of Spanish customs, and football customs would very much feel like a kiss was appropriate. I don't think it would have been any different if she was a man. Or if she was a man and the President was a woman, or if both were women. I think a kiss in celebration is a default reaction in those circumstances.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,372 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Spanish and football customs my arse! 😂

    Speaking on the Spanish broadcaster Cadena Ser, the presenter José Luis Sastre hinted at a double standard at play. “In the hundreds of celebrations that we’ve seen between Rubiales and male players, he didn’t grab any of them by the head in order to give them a kiss without asking.”

    Video from the celebrations also shows Rubiales kissing other players on the cheeks and embracing them.

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/aug/21/luis-rubiales-kiss-outrage-spanish-football-fa-president-womens-world-cup-final-spain-jenni-hermoso


    It doesn’t appear Jenni Hermoso, the Spanish footballer, or any of her teammates, were aware of these Spanish and football customs you refer to, as if that would excuse his actions! 😒



  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Viviana Stocky Urinal


    A thoroughly b*llocks argument.

    Who are we to judge how someone reacts?

    Just because she didn't immediately wallop him across the face (which would have been a different victim blaming story - she overreacted, blah, blah, blah) she was probably shocked as to what had happened and it took a bit of time to process.

    The excuse people make for him was apparently because he was euphoric, well, perhaps she was euphoric too and when that euphoria subsided it dawned on her what happened.

    And someone being sexually assaulted, on camera in front of millions, is not f*cking overinflating anything.

    When something like this happens in private we hear "Her word against his". When we see it on live TV people still blame the women.

    B

    O

    L

    L

    O

    C

    K

    S



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,275 ✭✭✭nachouser


    Ah sure it's grand. The usual ghouls are mostly trolling the actual football thread.

    I reported him yesterday as a troll who just wanted to get the whole thing rolling, and here we are.

    Scumbag poster.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,467 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    There's a big power imbalance here too. It would be like the CEO of a major company kissing a much lower ranked female employee on the lips without her permission - many women in that situation would feel very uncomfortable but would be fearful of saying or doing anything because of the potential repercussions.



  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Viviana Stocky Urinal


    Very true. Hermoso is "lucky" the incident was caught on live TV.

    I mean, look at this, this wouldn't be accepted in any other workplace.

    As I said earlier, the fact that FIFA are 'good guys' for suspending him tells you all you need to know about the Spanish FA.




  • Registered Users Posts: 968 ✭✭✭Str8outtaWuhan


    If like to see full footage of the incident not just snippets or pics. If his claim she grabbed him and lifted him before the kiss is true then she has no grounds to complain.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,483 ✭✭✭robbiezero


    Heroic stuff from you. Post news of your glorious deeds on even more threads.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,275 ✭✭✭nachouser


    Nah, but it could have been dealt with if any of the footie mods bothered to listen. Delete his troll nonsense post (which they were warned about) and the thread might not have been farked.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 88,458 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    The women and the country should be celebrating an amazing victory but this has overshadowed it all, he should step down or be fired



  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Viviana Stocky Urinal


    Solidarity from Cadiz CF before their La Liga match versus Almeria.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,467 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Yes, he has potentially ruined the best week of their lives. If he had issued a strong apology to Hermoso and spoke of his sincere regret, the whole affair would have been forgotten in 24/48 hours. Instead, he and the Spanish FA have behaved atrociously and made an utter hames of things.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 639 ✭✭✭BaywatchHQ


    I could talk about about female double standards too, it is considered creepy for a man to admire a female sportspersons body yet women have oggled over men like Ronaldo for years.

    Also in regards to body shaming, it is considered shameful to comment on women's bodies yet women can height shame and penis shame men every day of the week.

    Only recently a porn star body shamed Trump and it was the most liked tweet of the day.

    I could go on all day about these double standards.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 639 ✭✭✭BaywatchHQ


    This World Cup was proof of how unpopular female sport actually is, many people probably weren't even aware that England got to the final. That would never be the case if the men got to the final.

    It is the same with Gaelic games. They need to play 3 games in the women's final day and they still don't fill Croke Park (Junior, Intermediate and Senior). In the men's final they play one game and there is a fight for tickets. I am not against female sport but I won't buy into the idea that it is just as important as men's sport. It obviously isn't given that it doesn't gather the same amount of fans.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,483 ✭✭✭robbiezero


    Yep, eat humble pie for a week, say he just got carried away with exuberance at their outstanding achievement. Job done.

    Incredible arrogance to take the other route. These days when you are wrong and dont do the sack cloth and ashes, social media and millions of the righteous will eat you alive.



  • Registered Users Posts: 968 ✭✭✭Str8outtaWuhan


    That has been edited there is a cut a jump in sequence just before it gets to yer one ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,380 ✭✭✭sonofenoch




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭seenitall


    That looks like it was him who jumped up, rather than her lifting him up. Her posture is that of a hug, not indicative of someone purposefully supporting another person’s weight.



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