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You've been looking in the wrong direction, the dangers are coming from the Left - read OP

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Here is the image in question, as published by The Telegraph.

    Do you think this is acceptable content for 4-year old children?




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,519 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    The word of Nigel Farage, a man who's spent over a decade gaslighting his own country. Hard to think of something worth less than that.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,724 ✭✭✭growleaves


    It isn't, but here's where partisanism potentially gets in the way.

    By having Farage as the face of this story (a red rag to a bull) and associating it with "left wingers" that might put some people on the defensive from the get-go.

    Whereas if it was just "This corrupt nursery is foisting sexual content on children" that is easier to condemn.

    I wonder are these right-left threads counter-productive since everyone just more and more entrenched on their (so-called) "side".



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I agree that some people might use the story as an excuse to attack the messenger; in this case, Nigel Farage.

    But taking that away for one moment, it seems to be a deliberate strategy of provocation. Many on the intransigent left want to provoke anyone on the right, even if it means supporting the publication of content like this (irrespective of the consequences in society, too). It seems to be a case of, "if the right is annoyed about it, then we must support it -- no matter what".

    Now this is a two-way street. There are many right-wing activists who deploy the same stupid strategy, arguing in favour of anything that annoys the left just for the sake of it. That's equally deplorable and pathetic.

    I think both extremes need to grow up and recognize that some things are just wrong -- and this includes the publication of imagery like that in nurseries.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,110 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Bomdage gear is a bit OTT, but I can see your point. Any open minded parent could pass this off as two men in costume kissing. Kid's probably seen people kiss before.

    I'd also ask why you don't link it on your first post....?

    Anyway, it's nothing to do with your mythical concerns about trans education - that was aimed at teenagers and was part of a larger social/political syllabus.

    Or do you just think your opinions should be beyond question?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    First of all, bondage gear in a nursery is far more than "a bit OTT"; you are attempting to minimize it. At least you recognize that it's wrong, though, which is far more than I can say for some of the contorted, unjustifiable defences I have seen across social media.

    On education, I do not have a singular concern. I think many bad things have happened in education over the past 10-20 years. This isn't something that has popped up in the last 6-months. If we start at the very top, we see how students are far less tolerant of certain views; how they demand safe spaces; how professors are expected to sign-up to the program; how there is a clear unwillingness to debate certain ideas. That has created a generation of fragile minds, which is unhealthy -- both for the individual and society at large; what Jonathan Heidt described well in his book, The Coddling of the American Mind. In another thread, there is talk about introducing divisive US culture war concepts, such as "white male privilege", into curricula. And so on, and so on, and so on; you get the picture.

    In other words, the education system has failed students -- from nursery right through to university. The core reason for that failure is this concerted attempt to introduce bad ideas into the minds of children and young adults; stifling their resilience whilst at the same time elevating personal feelings as primacy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,110 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    You have no concerns and no logic to back any of this up and weve been here before. You're just scaremongering with lies. No threat other than that.

    You're adding nothing and I've nothing left to prove, so we're done here.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 81,893 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Here’s Mr. Slave.

    Won’t someone please think of the children TM

    Is this your new “school curriculum concern”



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,989 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    I think it is a bit unfair to say the whole education system has failed students nowadays. I don't see it as a bad thing to provide sex education to kids and talk about feelings. In any generation the education system will have its has pros and cons, you are making it out that the education system in the past was a bed of roses with student taught "good ideas". The Irish system is noy that no matter what the divisive doom merchants claim it to be.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The education system in the past was bad, it had its faults -- I agree. But it has worsened over time, not improved. It is largely no longer fit for purpose. I also agree that sex education is important, I don't think anyone reasonable would disagree with that.

    But there are questions to be asked about whether certain topics are appropriate for certain age groups. For example, when parents expressed concern about the bondage image, they were told the image was wholly justified. It is quite clearly the wrong thing to do. This isn't the only example of excess, it is becoming more frequent over time -- and very often justified (as some on this thread have already attempted to do).

    It's these kinds of excesses in education that people are drawing attention to, not reasonable ideas or concepts.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,989 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    Sex education was only brought in in 1997 in Ireland and from most articles i have read on it it does not appear to have changed in its 20 years. If you think its introduction was a good thing- when do you think it has changed to being a bad thing? Or are there other elements of the education system that you think are worse since 1997? From an outsiders view there is nothing striking to suggest that the education system in last 20 years is failing the young generation of Irish.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    When do you think it has changed to being a bad thing?

    As I said, I don't have any problem with formal sex education in this country.

    Do you think the bondage picture is appropriate for 4 year old children?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,989 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    No definitely not appropriate. But I also didn't say the education system is failing students from kindergarten to university. That is a huge statement to make that you haven't been able to support.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I have supported it by reference to Jonathan Heidt's study of the subject, which is infinitely more illuminating than anything I personally believe.

    His study expands on the impact on Western countries generally, though focuses on the US where these toxic ideas have taken most root in education.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,989 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    So one author that very much sounds like he is involved in looking at American education is the basis for your condemnation of the Irish education system. That seems a bit unreasonable.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    No, Heidt was studying how education has changed in the US based on a number of factors, many of which are seeping into Irish society, the UK, over time.

    It's not to say the Irish education system is as bad as the US. That would be absurd. It's about saying we don't want the Irish education system to morph into what has happened in the US.



  • Registered Users Posts: 81,893 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Registered Users Posts: 81,893 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    The most dangerous thing you can have in a subcommittee hearing: a sign that says 1 kid is greater than all the guns

    Look at all those strong muscular law enforcement officers with guns taking care of the danger

    That was a close one. If these audience members could read they'd be very upset.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,989 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    But you condemned it as getting worse and failing all ages of irish student which based on the evidence of one authors view is absurd. I presume there are are good and bad aspects to the US education system. I just think to predict that only bad ideas from other countries are going to seep into the Irish education is unreasonably pessimistic. If you look for bad news anywhere you will find it, but doesnt mean overall things are getting worse.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    It is absurd, but what’s even more absurd is to use an example which demonstrates that they’re not actually interested in keeping politics out of education, their only concern is keeping ideas they don’t like, out of education.

    There’s no great irony there either in the fact that Jonathan Haidt made no real commentary on the education system in the US, let alone did he study it in any great detail, nor did his co-writer Greg Lukianoff - neither of them were particularly interested in education in the first place in writing the book. Haidt, a psychologist, was seeking to promote his ideas about mindfulness and CBT, and Lukianoff, a lawyer, was seeking to promote his ideas about using freedom of speech law to amplify his ideas and quell dissent on college campuses in the US.

    Political shenanigans does indeed make for strange bedfellows at times, and this was no different, particularly when the whole mindfulness and CBT stuff is very much leftist thing, introduced in Irish schools going back a few years now, as wellness.

    It’s intended as an alternative to religion in an increasingly secular society, which the US education system is, which the Irish education system is, and the fact is that education is provided by religious groups and institutions for the most part, which disgruntled lefties who wish refer to themselves as ‘centrist’ or ‘conservative’ would rather maintain, than cede ground to progressive ideas.

    There’s no irony either in rapid attempting to import culture wars BS from the US and apply it to an Irish context where it sure as hell can’t be applied.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,051 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Leftwing icon NY Times giving column space to right-wing ghoul Ann Coulter. Sad, but good for clicks I guess.




  • Registered Users Posts: 81,893 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Either exceptionally tolerant or incredibly forgetful of the NYT.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,051 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Aww just because she wished Timothy McVeigh had parked the OK bomb truck in front of their offices.



  • Registered Users Posts: 81,893 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    'with the editors and journalists in the building'



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,984 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Giving Skeletor a column sounds like a cheap stunt.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,110 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    You haven't supprted it, you've linked to a book about American education and implied that it's on its way here. That's vague even for you. For one thing: what part of the US? Education of social issues in Florida is very different to education of social issues in California. Which state we talking about here? And which policies?

    I mean, I could take it that you're implying that, because some states teach creationism, Ireland is going to start doing it soon?

    And, needless to say, no mention of any specific reason why you are against the idea of educating Irish children - why can' you just come out, be honest, and say you don't have a clue what's being proposed and you have no idea why you're against it?

    Give us reasons! NOT vague links!

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Every time I engage with your arguments and supply evidence that sustains my position, you either dismiss the evidence outright or pretend it never existed. It's bad faith arguing on your behalf, and its sheer persistence has led me to the irreversible conclusion that I'm wasting my time engaging with your posts.

    You have no interest in engaging in arguments against your position, and the hostility with which you dismiss anyone who disagrees with your positions says more about the weakness of your arguments more than anything else.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,110 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    That's because I don't know what the evidence supports.

    The evidence supports your "concerns" - ok, but without knowing what your concerns are, how do I know if the evidence supports them? And as you know, I don't believe you have concerns in the first place - so how could I? I believe you're scaremongering and refuse to admit it.

    In relation to the specific book - the topic of the book is nothing to do with either transgender issues or education in Ireland, why should I believe it supports anything?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Minister McGrath says he might increase the bank levy if the banks don't pass on the higher ECB rates to savers. Two things about this:

    First, the banks will only pass on the higher interest rates if the it costs them more to pay the levy than they make by mugging the savers. Therefore the levy would have to be increased by a factor of 20 Minister McGrath. Please don't insult our intelligence by waiting until the budget to do this.

    Secondly, who should get the money from any increase in revenue from the bank levy? The government or the savers?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,984 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    WTF has this got to do with the thread title?



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