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Gorey Gaelscoil debacle - astonishing legal smackdown

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,671 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    You are talking about culture.

    The way I see it if one school is cooking the books, that deprives another school who is more deserving that hasn't cooked the books.

    The pot is finite.

    But again you just have to read the High Court Judges comments justifying the culture.

    I'll remind you again the next time fraud annoys you.

    Either way according to the Department guidelines and backed up by the official from the Department the sacking was justifyiable.

    Maybe the Department should get involved and take this case higher, because the way I see it 2 courts just cut their legs from under them .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,671 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    They forced him to attack the child and cook the books?

    Or did he do that himself?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,304 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Now who’s missing the point?

    You’re trying to justify the behaviour of the Principal and the Board of Management based upon your own prejudices that the teacher in question had any case to answer for. They don’t, because the investigation was never completed, and wasn’t conducted properly in the first place. This is what I mean when I said you’re way off in thinking the BOM couldn’t have dismissed him in accordance with employment law.

    The whole point of employment law is to protect employees from unfair treatment, and to prohibit employers from inflicting unfair treatment upon their employees. This is the whole point of fair procedures, which requires a proper investigation to be carried out within a reasonable time frame, and based upon the findings of that investigation, then it would be decided what was an appropriate action to be taken. None of this happened, primarily due to the fact that the BOM were completely incompetent, but also due to the fact that the new Principal ran roughshod over every procedure which was required of them and the Board.

    Had they adhered to proper procedures, and they’re all laid out in the governing manual which each member of the board receives upon appointment, then this whole sorry mess that dragged on for a decade could have been prevented. You claimed the Principal didn’t go gung ho, she very much did, treating the school like her own personal little fiefdom where her rule reigns supreme, yet that is precisely why schools are required by law to have a Board of Management, to mitigate against this sort of behaviour. The Board are expected to manage the affairs of the school and act in the schools best interests, and in this case they failed miserably on a number of issues, not the least of which was their failure to conduct a proper investigation into the incident in a timely manner, which resulted in a man being deprived of his livelihood, his reputation smeared with an allegation of wrongdoing, and the school being run by one person who acted way outside of their authority In taking the law into their own hands.

    You claimed the end justifies the means; it doesn’t, it never does, and this case is evidence of that fact. When the Principal decided to take the law into her own hands, and the Board decided to let her take the law into her own hands rather than do what they are expected to do as a Board, they were entirely in the wrong. That’s why they were on the receiving end of such harsh words from the judge, that’s why the former Principal of the school was reinstated and his reputation was restored, and your question about the 12 years in between just doesn’t arise. Your Minority Report fantasies are just that, they’re not an argument, they’re based entirely on your own prejudices in place of the facts. That’s why we have numerous checks and balances in place intended to ensure that people when they are accused of wrongdoing are entitled to fair treatment. It’s one of the most basic and fundamental principles in law.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,518 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Erm, the board clearly made a terrible decision in everything they did, perhaps you need to read what the judge said again?

    Why do you think its not the first time? By definition there is a first time, why isn't this it? Do you have any proof whatsoever that its not the first time?


    I dont think there is anything more to this story, I think there is a lot more in your head that for some reason you are deciding is fact. Perhaps you think this is an episode of Neighbours?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,518 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Perhaps they wanted it on record, at least on their end?

    I seriously doubt that the Principal coerced them into doing or saying something they didnt want to!



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  • Posts: 14,768 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I’m talking about common sense, if that is cultural, then that is a very good thing.

    If a school intake falls short by a couple of pupils and lose a teacher, then pupils from that teacher’s class have to be absorbed into another teacher’s room, is that good or sensible? Probably not.

    I doubt they are denying another school a teacher, in somewhere like Gorey there may not be another school who can take that teacher or they may have to go on a panel somewhere else, is losing a teacher in such circumstances good for any one of the parties involved? Only in your mind.

    I suspect that the loss of teachers and the impact on the school/pupils is a concern for a huge number of Schools/Principals/BOM/Parents/Teachers/Pupils every year. We should be thankful if the cultural approach is one of common sense rather than some metronomic person who abides precisely to every rule. It seems the Dept understands this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,671 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Is there any evidence the school has nothing but thrived since his departure?

    Is there any more evidence any children being attacked?

    It's almost like you don't have to commit fraud and violence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,671 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    You claimed the end justifies the means;

    How many children has he attacked in that school in the past 11 and half years?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    I'm not saying the Principal coerced them by any means. I'd be more inclined to think that the Principal asked them for the letter. But that's speculation on my part because I don't know why the parents wrote to the school through their solicitor.

    If they wrote a personal letter, then it would still be on record.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,671 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    So you believe after 30 odd years of teaching he attacked a child for the first time because they stamped their feet.

    Fair enough.

    I don't. Primarily because that would be illogical.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,304 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Don’t pretend you didn’t see this part of my post:

    your question about the 12 years in between just doesn’t arise



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8 Hogeveen


    Are you joking? Here are examples of what the school was like after the principal was removed: the new principal left their dogs roam around the school somtimes urinating on the floor, a convicted pedophile regularly came and parked outside the school as the children were leaving, and in one occasion the school was put into lockdown and the Gardaí called to deal an unruly pupil. I kid you not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭lulublue22


    Going to be interesting going forward - he is entitled to be reinstated as per the high court judgement -in a newspaper article yesterday he made it clear he would return - two principals how will that work??



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭lulublue22


    pure speculation on my part - but given the judges statement that Ms NiDhuinn ruined the school within weeks of her appointment as chair of the BOM I’m inclined to believe that there was a lot more behind the scenes - it’s possible the parents did not support the actions of the board and did not want to be linked to / associated with the BOM behaviour.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭lulublue22


    Is the same principal there now ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,671 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Evidence the school has been ruined?

    Parents would sit on the board of management.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,671 ✭✭✭✭Boggles




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭lulublue22


    To be pedantic the BOM “cooked the books” all decisions made by a principal are signed off by the BOM. In this case the board were aware of what the principal did re returns.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭lulublue22




    In the 144 page statement given by the judge in the case.

    no idea what relevance parents sitting on the board have - in response to another poster - I speculated that the child’s parents in question did not condone / want to be involved with the boards behaviour based on sending in a solicitors letter. I made no reference to any other parents.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8 Hogeveen


    You're being sarcastic but here goes. No rabid dogs, it was a nice fluffy dog (or dogs) the new principal thought were fine to bring to school with her. One day my child could not go to class as the dog had peed in there. The pedophile was well known and not viewed as a big threat by the parents for reasons I won't go into, but the former (sacked) principal would not have left the situation continue -- the new principal didn't care. Calling the Gardaí to handle an unruly 7-year-old was disgraceful and traumatising, but it's a matter fact that any parent in the school at the time was aware of.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭lulublue22




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,599 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    I agree, we will have to have a proper investigation, oh wait...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    I can't see him coming back. He'll get a big lump sum for wages lost etc. I'd say he'll get another lump sum to take early retirement.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭lulublue22


    I would have thought the same - but in an article yesterday he was clear that he was returning as principal - may not happen but I wouldn't be surprised. It takes some commitment to keep fighting for 11 years even if it is to clear your name.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,518 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    The irony of you calling someone else's post a story is immense. You are the poster who is imagining all sorts of magical things that there is zero evidence happened.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    The Principal is 63 so he's due to retire in the near future. Now that his name is cleared, I'd say he'd be happy enough to get a few bob to fcuk off and relax for the rest of his days. That's what I'd do if I was in his shoes.

    It's not confirmed that he will return to the role. The judge said that the Principal should return but that's still to be decided. The final orders haven't been decided yet. That'll be decided on July 28th.

    Mr Ó Suird should be immediately reinstated as principal, with all his entitlements, with effect from 2013, the judge said. This might mean the school having two principals because a new principal was appointed in 2016, when the school was on notice of Mr Ó Suird’s ultimately successful appeal to the Workplace Relations Commission against his dismissal.


    The judge, who placed responsibility on Ms Ní Dhuinn and other board members for the “debacle”, will hear submissions later this month concerning what final orders he should make.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,671 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Calling the Gardaí to handle an unruly 7-year-old was disgraceful and traumatising

    Indeed, the principal should have just attacked him. 👍️



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,671 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    The principal sits on the BOM. The BOM cannot be sacked. They can be replaced.

    Again this isn't my opinion, it's from The Department of Education.

    A representative from the Department sits on the Appeals panel, they upheld the BOMs decision.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,671 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


     The pedophile was well known and not viewed as a big threat by the parents for reasons I won't go into

    Oh he was one of the those harmless paedophiles?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Regarding the 'cooking the books' aspect of this case, it's noted that the High Court judge found the following:

    The judge described his evidence as “overwhelming” and noted there had been no finding of fraud by an independent disciplinary appeal panel, the Department of Education inspector or the Labour Court.




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