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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    The intersex exist, obviating the flaw in your binary argument.

    People are excercised there are men competing in women's sports.

    And not the reverse, evidencing proof of unilateral sexual discrimination.

    Trans women are men. No woman can be a trans woman.

    Says who? Citation?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,716 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    One legged people exist. Does that mean humans aren't a bipedal species? Intersex is an abnormality in sexual development, it's not the norm, and fwiw many intersex people don't appreciate their medical conditions being used in this way.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 726 ✭✭✭mjsc1970


    Trans and non Binary have the same access as everyone else. Based on their biology. Same as everyone else. No discrimination. Please stop.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    A prime example of when society without any 2nd thought to it now, have ensured the commons of the society are as accessible as humanly possible to the one legged person. Handicap spaces, handicap protections, the Americans With Disabilities Act (landmark law), mandatory bldg code requirements for the handicapped, and on and on; research and development of increasingly sophisticated and bleeding edge prosthetics, even hacking functions of the human body in some cases, and the ability to openly compete in the league of their choice. Asking if humans are a bipedal species seems like it is missing the issue again. Pistorius didn't have any legs, and they weren't needed for him to compete, so it's an irrelevant consideration, we could be a species that during alignments with jupiter grows 8 legs, but he didn't have any. Athletes don't use their sexual organs to compete in sport either, therefore it is a similarly irrelevant concern as well. The current barometer is testosterone level, testosterone can range wildly in an individual regardless of biological sex, eg. hypogonadism. It doesn't matter that these are "abnormalities" the society of the commons offers equal protection to all, this isn't Animal Farm, where all animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others. FWIW most transgender people don't like being used in a whole host of ways, usually as the end of the stick of populist right wing politics, or the victims of targeted acts of lethal force.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 726 ✭✭✭mjsc1970



    We're talking about the integrity of Sports.

    It's just not fair on females for males to complete against females in the female sports category, where male physicality is an obvious advantage.

    Inclusion does not trump fairness.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Inclusion does not trump fairness.

    This doesn't hold water, we are both inclusive and fair both to the disabled, inclusive and fair both to people of diverse ethnic and racial backgrounds. Despite similar arguments from the alt right that 'these groups may enjoy 'obvious advantages' eg. the old adage, "white men can't jump."' These deprecated schools of thought in biology were responsible for much segregation, especially in sports.

    The correlation between genetics and athletic performance has long been a general topic of discussion among scientists, athletes, coaches, sports fans, and the general public, particularly in light of the success of African and African-American athletes in certain sports. The notion of racial differences in athletic performance has been connected by some scientists to the amount of fast-twitch and slow-twitch muscles possessed by different “racial” groups. This raises the question of whether a specific racial group might be inherently better at certain athletic events. To answer this question in the affirmative would mean that the members of a racial group share some genetically transmitted traits.

    Many experts have come to view “race” as a socially constructed phenomenon, with racial categories often based on physical attributes, skin color, and other identifiable physical characteristics, not on genetic differences. This system of categorizing groups is not recognized by social scientists as a valid method of defining humans. Indeed, modern genetic science has found little genetic variation between the so-called races. In addition, in attempting to distinguish groups by race, many tend to ignore important socioeconomic variables, including economic, political, cultural, and social factors.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 726 ✭✭✭mjsc1970




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Sure.

    Whether users want to hold up the Texas ban earnestly or facetiously, it might not even matter in the end.

    Now it's certainly clear Republicans hope to pull another monumental abdication of stare decisis like what happened when the dog caught the car with the overturning of Roe, however there is no guarantee the SCOTUS will actually uphold these attempts to marginalize LGBTQ minorities, and so far hasn't done. The new Texas law is just the next wave of effort attempting to craft a legal challenge that will compel the SCOTUS to make a landmark decision one way or the other. Not just for their right to sports either, (eg. see Doe v. Abbott). I reiterate again, the real purpose here is nazi-playbook populism, because they have very little to run on, the party has no real platform, it only sells fears now (like 'men perpetrating womens sport')

    Furthermore:

    There is no firm basis available in evidence to indicate that trans women have a consistent and measurable overall performance benefit after 12 months of testosterone suppression. While an advantage in terms of Lean Body Mass (LBM), Cross Section Area (CSA) and strength may persist statistically after 12 months, there is no evidence that this translates to any performance advantage as compared to elite cis-women athletes of similar size and height. This is contrasted with other changes, such as hemoglobin (HG), which normalize within the cis women range within four months of starting testosterone suppression. For pre-suppression trans women it is currently unknown when during the first 12 months of suppression that any advantage may persist. The duration of any such advantage is likely highly dependent on the individual's pre-suppression LBM which, in turn varies, greatly and is highly impacted by societal factors and individual circumstance.  

    Source: Canadian Center for Ethics in Sport




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,027 ✭✭✭El Gato De Negocios


    If biology is irrelevant to the discussion of competition fairness in sports, should an adult male be allowed to compete in events for juveniles if they "feel" like they are a child trapped in an adults body?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 323 ✭✭sonar44


    Comparing the right of men to enter and dominate women’s sports with the right to vote is actually as dumb as it gets. It’s clear you are simply regurgitating the worst tropes of gender voodoo and not interested in the topic.

    It's just a discussion. Something more important is bound to come along.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,046 ✭✭✭plodder


    It's self evident. Otherwise, how would legislators communicate their intention, and judges interpret it?

    There's plenty of legislation, including the constitution, which refers to "sex" and "woman" without defining either word.

    “Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt” - Carl Jung



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 683 ✭✭✭ingalway


    So if it's a sexual discrimination matter, rather than gender discrimination, then women have every right to protest as they are the ones being discriminated against by males who self identify as females being in the women's category. Surely even you acknowledge that sex is real or are you actually saying that if a person believes they are the opposite sex then they are? Although that makes no sense either if sex is not real - how can you be another sex if sex is not real and how can someone be so sure they are a woman if the word woman cannot even be defined? It's all very Scientologyish

    Why do you think that nobody gives a 'wink' about women who self identify as males competing against men? Are the men just lovely enlightened chaps or is it a non issue because they are highly unlikely to ever lose a race, a place on a team, a medal, prize money or ever be seriously injured by them? I also don't think too many men would feel physically/sexually threatened by a female person in their changing area/showers - it might be uncomfortable but they are never in any danger. I'd take a wild guess that the vast majority of women and girls do not want naked male bodies changing and showering near them whilst they all have to pretend that it's all perfectly normal and they are just one of the girls.

    What is wrong with having a third category for anyone who believes themselves to be trans or nonbinary? What about the furries? I guess the cats would need a separate category from the dogs as it could be very dangerous. Lots of bags and litter would be needed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    There is plenty of scientific evidence trans people do exist no matter how much you claim they don't

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Patrick2010


    The former University of Kentucky swimmer told Lee that the NCAA did “nothing” at the 2022 tournament to accommodate her and other female swimmers who felt uncomfortable sharing an open locker room with Thomas, who swam for the University of Pennsylvania as a male from 2017 to 2020

    Gaines testified that none of her fellow swimmers consented to sharing a locker room with Thomas, whom she described as a “6-foot-4, 22-year-old male equipped with and exposing male genitalia.”

    No one is saying William or Lia Thomas can't compete in swimming , just that its only fair that it should be in the male section. How is that discrimination?



  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Yet its you who is arguing in favour of a position that discriminates against biological women.

    If you are claiming to be anti-discrimination, then by your own measure you'll need to reassess your own position on this question.

    Everyone has "access" to sport, both biological males and biological females. Nobody is denied access and nobody is arguing for that access to be revoked.

    And referring back to the law on what constitutes a woman doesn't help your argument one iota, because a fundamental axiom of law is that what's legal isn't always what's right.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,027 ✭✭✭El Gato De Negocios


    Ehhh, where did I say that trans people didnt exist? Please stop making up lies. They obviously do, but at a biological level ie the basis of all life on this planet, a trans person cannot change what they are. They can change who they are or present as, to live under a different gender, choose their pronouns, have surgeries, take medication, whatever, but that does not change what they are at a cellular level. And thats what this thread is about, the clear and obvious physical advantages most men have over most women.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Genuine question here. We've had plenty of discussions on various topics. Would I be considered part of the conservative movement? And it's fine if you think I am. I won't be insulted either ways.

    Here's a few of my viewpoints to help establish if I'm conservative or not.

    I'm fine with a man wanting to live as a woman and I'll be respectful if I meet them but no matter what laws say, or how much someone screams, I don't believe a transwoman = woman. I don't believe transwomen should be allowed into women's sports. I'm non religious. I'm ok with abortion. I'm ok with immigration provided numbers are controlled. I'm ok with some gun control but not with banning guns. I've no problem with someone being a little conservative or a little liberal, it's the opposite ends of the scale that I've a problem with. I think Trump and Biden are not fit to be president. What else, I don't agree with cancel culture just because someone says something you don't agree with. I'm a big fan of freedom of speech as long as it's not calling for violence against anyone.

    So, where am I on the Liberal/Conservative scale? Just curious where you'd put me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Is it not discriminating against biological women to have to compete against biological males who have a physical advantage due to them going through male puberty?



  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It's actually not even a liberal or conservative matter.

    Over the past three years, the number of Democrats in the US -- to take one example -- who oppose biological males competing in women's sport has actually risen.

    So it doesn't matter where on the political spectrum you belong, most people on either side share the same kind of viewpoints on this matter.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭tesla_newbie




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    This is a similarly absurd effort to deflect from discussing actual topic, you’re a faceless nobody on the internet. I’m a faceless nobody on the internet. I didn’t make an ad hominem argument of Battlecorp. This doesn’t interest me in the slightest. This doesn’t obviate the reality of republicans using the Nazi playbook to make people scared of neurodivergent human beings because it’s a cheap fear tactic that grabs votes and fires up the crazies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    This isn’t an argument that flies elsewhere in society? Women have to compete against biological males for jobs in Amazon warehouses, where physical labor is key?



  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Here:

    A Gallup poll released on Monday found that the number of Democrats who say transgender athletes should be allowed to play on sports teams that match their gender identity fell from 55 percent in 2021 to 47 percent this year. At the same time, the number of Democrats who say transgender athletes should only participate on teams that match their birth gender has gone up from 41 to 48 percent in the same time period.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Did this groomer panic TM approved red herring work at keeping blacks out of the major leagues?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    But it’s not “clear” nor “obvious” and that’s not an actual standard of evidence, that’s your lay opinion. I just posted a literature review showing there is contrary to your claim, a void of evidence actually showing any “clear” or “obvious” distinction between trans women or cis women athletes when the former is on hormone therapy for at least 12 months.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,027 ✭✭✭El Gato De Negocios


    So we are back to black people again. I think at this point if you were to provide a straight answer to any question posed to you by anyone I'd fall off my chair in shock! 😁



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    This is nonsense. Inclusion is not discrimination. This isn’t college affirmative action. The sport doesn’t have an enrollment cap.

    And everyone DOES NOT have access to sport, that’s the fundamental issue with equal rights clashing against religious fundamentalists who find it uncomfortable dealing with the civil rights of non-binary people. Which is precisely why these laws are failing when they hit the Supreme Court, even a conservative Supreme Court at that.



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