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General Premier League Thread 2022-23 - mod note in OP 12/03/23

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,869 ✭✭✭✭Fitz*


    PL POTY nominees are in.

    I can't say that I agree with all of the nominations, but on the whole the main best players are included. Haaland and Odegaard the top 2 IMO, with Haaland winning it out as that goal record is too hard to ignore.




  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 11,854 Mod ✭✭✭✭artanevilla


    Rangers weren't relegated, they went out of existence and have to reapply to the league.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,952 ✭✭✭✭TitianGerm


    Not sure what Saka and Rashford are doing there because both have been fairly poor for months now. Both were excellent before the end of January but you shouldn't be nominated with 3 poor months.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,342 ✭✭✭El Gato De Negocios


    City getting squirrely.

    Manchester City launch legal fight against Premier League charges. Club are disputing legality of the investigation and the involvement of the barrister in charge of the disciplinary process in case that could take four years to be resolved.

    Manchester City have lodged legal challenges against the Premier League’s 115 charges for alleged rule breaches, disputing the legality of the investigation and the involvement of the barrister who is in charge of the disciplinary process.

    The Times understands that City have raised the dispute in relation to recent changes in the Premier League’s rules, arguing that they should not apply to investigations into alleged rule breaches before then.

    The club are also understood to have challenged the involvement of Murray Rosen KC, the head of the Premier League’s independent judicial panel, as the person who appoints the chair of the disciplinary commission — under the rules he can appoint himself. Rosen’s profile on his chambers’ website states that he is a “member of the MCC and Arsenal FC”.

    The Premier League declined to comment. Manchester City did not respond when asked to comment.

    The challenges are likely to cause a further delay to the outcome of the case — legal experts believe that it could be between two and four years before it is completed. Any legal dispute between the clubs and the league should initially go to an arbitration tribunal, and beyond that it can go to the High Court and Court of Appeal.

    After the charges were announced in February, City made clear that they would take every possible legal step to defend themselves and insisted they have “irrefutable evidence” to disprove the 115 alleged rule breaches over 14 seasons, from 2009-10 to the present campaign.

    Although it is not certain which specific rules the legal challenge relates to, some changes were made in February 2020 while the Premier League’s handbook has been changed in recent seasons. In February 2022, the Premier League added new guidance to its rules stating individuals are required to provide information and documents.

    The additional wording says: “The obligation means that those bound by the rules must not only answer questions, provide information and provide documents when requested to do so, but also that, for example (and without limitation), they must not delay at all in doing so, they must do so comprehensively, and they must do so on a co-operative and open basis, which includes volunteering relevant information and documents unknown to the board, obtaining such information and documents from other parties when able to do so, and ensuring that the appropriate individuals are made available for questioning by the board.’

    At the same time, the league also introduced the potential for “interim measures” to be taken to enforce compliance.

    In the 2016-17 season, a rule was amended to say: “Each club shall comply promptly and in full with any request for information made by the league.”

    If the charges are proved it could lead to a range of sanctions, including a deduction of points, with the ultimate punishment being expulsion from the Premier League.

    The charges include: inaccurate financial reporting over nine seasons, from 2009-10 to 2017-18; not co-operating with an investigation and handing over documents as required over five seasons, from 2018-19 to 2022-23; not providing full details of the manager Roberto Mancini’s pay over the four seasons he was at the club, from 2009-13; not providing full details of players’ remuneration over six seasons, from 2010-11 to 2015-16.

    City have employed a heavyweight legal team to deal with the Premier League’s investigation and charges, including David Pannick KC. The club had previously issued legal challenges to the Premier League after an investigation was launched in December 2018 following the release of the “Football Leaks” emails obtained by the Portuguese hacker Rui Pinto, which suggested some sponsorship income from Abu Dhabi companies was in fact paid directly by the club’s owners.

    Those challenges took until 2021 to reach a conclusion, and it was not until February of this year that charges were brought.

    A High Court ruling in March 2021 revealed that “the PL has suggested that the Club [MCFC] has sought to delay its handing over of the relevant documents and information by making numerous procedural applications”.

    It also revealed that the Premier League issued a disciplinary complaint against Manchester City in August 2019 “seeking disclosure of certain documents and information”. A commission was appointed to deal with the disciplinary complaint “but its composition and the disciplinary system were challenged by the club as not sufficiently independent or impartial”.

    In October 2019, the Premier League began an arbitration process against City, seeking an order for the club to “deliver up documents and information which were being withheld”.

    City brought a legal challenge then, saying that the Premier League “had no power to institute an . . . arbitration in respect of its information claim” and “that the tribunal did not have the appearance of impartiality”.

    That challenge by City eventually failed, and the club and the Premier League also both failed in an attempt — that went to the Court of Appeal — to prevent the court decision from being made public.

    One of the Court of Appeal judges, Lord Justice Males, said in a July 2021 ruling: “It is surprising, and a matter of legitimate public concern, that so little progress has been made after 2½ years — during which, it may be noted, the club has twice been crowned as Premier League champions.”

    City also employed a heavyweight legal team in successfully contesting charges brought by Uefa for breaches of its Financial Fair Play rules. Uefa initially imposed a two-year ban from European competitions but that was overturned by the Court of Arbitration for Sport in July 2020, which ruled that some charges were time-barred and that there was not enough evidence for others.

    The only sanction the court confirmed was a €10 million (about £8.7 million) fine for not co-operating with Uefa’s investigation.

    The latest legal challenge will also have to go to an arbitration panel initially, but beyond that it could go to the High Court. It has been suggested that City are prepared to go to the Supreme Court to fight the charges.

    Its as clear as day what they have been doing. The couple of fans on here have tried to maintain, at least publicly, that everything has been above board but if it was, why have the club attempted to block and obfuscate requests for information? We all know the finances are crooked so it hopefully they get everything thats coming to them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,753 ✭✭✭✭castletownman


    Well to be fair, United are the only team in the PL era to have won the league and champions league in the same season (99 treble, 08 double). I think Liverpool did it twice in the 70s- another side regarded among the best ever.

    Every other European Cup and Champions League win from English sides were 'cup runs' so to speak.

    There was far more jeopardy to United's run in 1999, coming as it did against a great Arsenal side in the league and plenty of late drama across the three competitions (THAT FA Cup semi vs Arsenal but also a comeback win vs Pool before that, all time classic CL semi vs Juve, falling behind to Spurs on last day, Nou Camp).

    Meanwhile, City have the resources to be able to rest players like De Bruyne and Grealish in a key game, can pick and choose when to play Silva so he's fit for the biggest games, can cast aside Mahrez and a supposed generational talent in Foden. Heck, they could even afford to allow Grealish a settling in period after buying him for £100m.

    United 99 and the great Liverpool side of the 1970s were all hands at the pump more or less. I do realise they were the financial powerhouses of their respective eras too, but at least it was organic growth.

    City are to football what the country of their owners is to the global stage. New money, ostensiously well-to-do and a geo-political big dog, but souless with no cultural or historic significance to call upon. Quite apt.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,869 ✭✭✭✭Fitz*


    Exactly the two players I was thinking of.

    I had a quick look at the numbers before and after the World Cup and compared them to another player. One of these players was nominated for POTY, one of them was not. One of them is Rashford, the other is Ollie Watkins. They are extremely close. Why pick one over the other? Both have the same form line, which is essentially a big burst of goals after the World Cup and then a drop off in performance again.

    2 goals in 14

    WC

    12 goals in 16

    0 goals in 5


    4 goals in 14

    WC

    12 goals in 16

    0 goals in 3


    Saka has been a bit more consistent - 1 goal every 3 games give or take, but a big burst in January - March period again. IMO, he's probably a top 10 player of the year or around that, but not top 6. He didn't show up in April / May when Arsenal fell apart. Maybe Xhaka deserved that nomination more, or possibly Saliba but that's splitting hairs really.

    Trippier is another who's form has dropped but he had a very good few months stretching back to August so overall should get it.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 36,197 CMod ✭✭✭✭ShamoBuc


    Some attempt at classifying them as not a real club maybe.

    Pretty childish really.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,869 ✭✭✭✭Fitz*


    Yeah you're right, Liverpool did win both the League & European Cup in 77. It was in the 80's that they did it again - the Liverpool team of 1984 won the League, European Cup and the League Cup. It never gets talked about when mentioning trebles etc.

    Personally I think the 07/08 Man Utd team was better than the 99 one, but that's from an outsider and I was also 10 years old in 2008 and able to look at football with a bit more understanding!



  • Posts: 14,734 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You are a fan of using similar for "stats" if I remember correctly, I was thinking that was childish then too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,472 ✭✭✭theoneeyedman


    Toney should have gotten legal advice from the City lads.... He'd be long retired before he'd gave any suspension.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,567 ✭✭✭✭martyos121




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,324 ✭✭✭IncognitoMan


    Not sure what stops state run clubs dominating the super league as well.

    It would actually help clubs like PSG, as their biggest issue is the league they play in.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,342 ✭✭✭El Gato De Negocios


    I wouldn't be so sure on this one tbh. Time will tell I guess but unless real action is taken then the league is completely and utterly fucked.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 35,109 ✭✭✭✭~Rebel~


    In theory they were going to have much much stricter rules on spending, including salary caps.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,567 ✭✭✭✭martyos121


    Even if they ultimately are punished, it’ll be years down the line and it will be far too late to undo all the damage that’s been done to the league, the transfer market and the fans of the sport.

    City have the money to just keep fighting this until people stop caring. I’m becoming more inclined to favour a super league by the day tbh, especially if they exclude the state-owned teams.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,920 ✭✭✭✭SlickRic


    i don't care about City making it boring. that is meaningless. it was boring when Utd won 13 out of 20, and nobody really protested. so it's not the monotony so much. yes, they get massive points totals, but if your team was getting massive points totals you wouldn't give a toss, nor should you.

    it's purely down to the doping. that's all that should be focused on. it's just about the cheating; nothing else.

    and it matters. it really matters.

    Arsenal sacrificed a decade at least to do it properly. Spurs never win, but they sacrificed massive spends to do their stadium up. whatever you think of Utd's ownership, the money they did make available was spent on transfers, not improving the stadium, and not really bringing anything else up to scratch. Liverpool have worked on the stadium and facilities, but their net spend is negligible in comparison, so had to be creative and ruthlessly efficient in the transfer market before others got up to speed.

    the reality is that City have been doing this for over a decade, and because of their maneuverings, have been able to spend £2bn on their squad, while also spending ludicrous amounts of money on getting everything from coaching, management, sports science, facilities, everything up to the absolute best in class, with plans to also completely revolutionise the stadium further. it is utterly and completely mad that we're meant to believe that any of this was above board when literally none of the other clubs near the top have been able to do everything that they've been able to do to get ahead and stay ahead. it simply must be cheating, or else why the fúck would other clubs not do everything at once like they have - squad spend, stadium improvement, youth and training facilities?

    and again, I have to say, how the 'alleged' cheating doesn't get talked about more than it does is absolutely fúcking mind boggling. it's going to look absolutely ridiculous in a few years time.

    and I keep hearing ... 'well, it has nothing to do with the players. they're the ones that are doing it'. it kills me. it has everything to do with the players, because without the doping, those players wouldn't be there as a group to do what they're doing. Haaland ain't coming without the payments. KDB ain't on that contract for the last few years without the doping. Pep ain't coming and staying as long as he has without the money on offer. Txiki ain't there without the money on offer. you don't buy multiple £50m defenders until you find a combination that works without the doping. you don't discard Ferran Torres and Cancelo without a second thought without the doping, and knowing you can always get someone when needed.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 13,227 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Two match touchline ban and a £75k fine for Klopp after the celebration shenanigans against Spurs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,208 ✭✭✭Talisman


    It wasn't for the celebration. It was for his post match comments.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,472 ✭✭✭theoneeyedman


    Don't forget, City also got a sweetheart deal for the stadium too iirc, council had to find a tenant after those commonwealth games (similar to West Ham moving to Stratford)



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 36,197 CMod ✭✭✭✭ShamoBuc


    You might give me an example, as I'm not sure I ever did.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 20,226 ✭✭✭✭y0ssar1an22


    thats been coming. poor start from brighton. its the hyde rather than the jekyll that turned up against arsenal



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,567 ✭✭✭✭martyos121


    Do Brighton know there's another half to the pitch?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 20,226 ✭✭✭✭y0ssar1an22


    big dive by wilson



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,869 ✭✭✭✭Fitz*


    Brighton look so unnerved with all the changes in the team. Newcastle pressing very high, which Brighton usually want and play around but cannot tonight. Newcastle press is very effective so far.

    Wilson should have been booked for that dive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,440 ✭✭✭✭Mushy


    And when they get a free kick in that half they almost underhit it short then back to the keeper



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,676 ✭✭✭doc_17


    Stupid decision to drop McCallister and Enciso.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 20,226 ✭✭✭✭y0ssar1an22


    prob an orange card



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 20,226 ✭✭✭✭y0ssar1an22


    and newcastle make it 2



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,865 ✭✭✭Pauliedragon


    I think this is it in a nutshell. I remember Jonathan Wilson saying as much a few weeks ago on football weekly and also on off the ball. The premier league for all it's money are in no place finacially to take on the likes of Man city. They'll hire the top lawyers on the planet and just bleed the likes of the PL or UEFA dry with delays until they just have to give up. It's a no win. Then you have the British government apparantly intervening to make sure the Saudi takeover of Newcastle was approved. The game can't take on these multi trillion organisations/governments.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 36,197 CMod ✭✭✭✭ShamoBuc


    Brighton away v Arsenal.

    Brighton away v Newcastle.

    Polar oppostite performances.



This discussion has been closed.
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