Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3

Loughc · 14-05-2023 08:23AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120594868#Comment_120594868

Exactly this. Marvel no longer can offer up guaranteed slam dunks.

Apparently with The issues with CGI backlogs, Jonathan Majors and now the writers strikes there is massive talks within marvel of completely scrapping the rest of phase 5 and 6 and just release one shot movies like fantastic 4, Spider-Man and deadpool.

flazio · 14-05-2023 08:28AM

Time will tell, but while Disney Marvel are faltering, Warner DC aren't exactly stepping up to the plate.

pixelburp · 14-05-2023 09:06AM

Guardians 3 will either be the kick in the pants and give the MCU renewed energy, or the final swing before it further stalls. The "last" Guardians film was always better placed to do well than others. Especially given the very vocal, supportive word of mouth.

I've said it before but "Death" is exaggerated bordering on hyperbole - we've to have a categorical bomb, we're very far from Shazam 2 territory - but you'd be hard pressed to find the same volume of viral enthusiasm for the newer "phase", nothing's taking. My prior analogy of the band with a key member gone stands imo; something isn't gelling and interest may dwindle if that excitement can't be renewed. While the Majors controversy became the wrong kind of publicity for the upcoming Big Event (Marvel's silence on this is ... interesting).

Time will tell, and it's too soon for the autopsy to start, but these new albums (stretching the metaphor) are missing something, some ineffable sound. Audiences won't follow forever. Guardians 3 is doing ok but that mightn't translate onwards to (say) Thunderbolts or Cap. America 4.

James Gunn proves one thing: give the right creative mind control to tell their story, and interest follows. It's not perfect cos you need the RIGHT kind of person who fits the material - cough cough Zack Snyder - but the constant succession of bland nobodies thrust into a Blockbuster after one indie film remains a risky strategy.

SuprSi · 14-05-2023 10:42AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120594259#Comment_120594259

Agreed. My wife, who I had to convince to come to the cinema with me and hadn't seen any of the earlier movies, absolutely loved it. She was in stitches, in tears and completely engrossed in what was going on. She enjoyed it so much she wants us to watch the 1st movie tonight, which I'm more than happy to go along with 😊

Foxtrol · 14-05-2023 03:13PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120594868#Comment_120594868

Marvel did an amazing job over the years, especially leading up to Endgame, that they've broken the brain of some people on what success is.

All of the above has always been true for the MCU and every other movie and franchise out there.

An expectation that coming out of Phase 3 that MCU was going to maintain those heights was a bar that was never going to be met. Talk about it 'dying' or everything is 'worrying' is just consistent hyperbole.

Penn · 14-05-2023 04:20PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120596053#Comment_120596053

Yeah they were always going to take a big dip in Phase 4, with the loss of some of the biggest characters, the ending of the Infinity saga, setting up the next saga, new characters, dilution with all the TV shows.

Admittedly, the dip has been more severe than most expected, and some of the films have been awful (and most others a very mixed bag).

But the movies are still performing well in cinemas, unlike the last few DC films. There's a definite drop, especially with Quantumania, but there's also plenty of time for them to course-correct, realise what's not working and maybe start giving themselves a bit more breathing room and bring in more experienced writers (think the writer of Quantumania had only really worked on Rick & Morty and American Dad).

There's no point jumping to conclusions and obsessing over analysing box office second week drop off etc. Not until the films really start bombing, and that didn't even happen with Thor 4 or Quantumania. Disappointing returns, yes, but still profitable.

Sudden Valley · 14-05-2023 05:47PM

I would be surprised if some of the guardians dont appear in a future avengers type movie but overall a good movie and much better than the disappointing GOTG 2. Its sad how the avengers movie killed the Quill Gamora relationship, it was something i enjoyed from the first two movies.

Definitely think it was the right time to bow out, the story had run its course.

pixelburp · 14-05-2023 09:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120596292#Comment_120596292

There's no point jumping to conclusions and obsessing over analysing box office second week drop off etc. Not until the films really start bombing, and that didn't even happen with Thor 4 or Quantumania. Disappointing returns, yes, but still profitable.

I'm open to correction, but AFAIK we don't know what Marvel's own projections dictate, or where their own expectations lie. If Marvel started the post Endgame phases with the presumption they were heading back to formula, fair enough; makes sense we give them runway to shape the new approach. Or indeed, if the effect of the quick move to Disney+ factors into things. But if there was a belief audiences would just continue to tune in, then the issue of stalling numbers becomes a tad contextual and relevant.

Guardians 3 becomes an outlier because it was such an independent beast compared with the trend of other MCU films; while Quantumania never shook the feeling it existed as a stage for the new Big Bad. Did Feige and the brain trust expect audiences to flood the cinemas to meet the new Thanos?

pixelburp · 15-05-2023 06:34AM

Probably seen before by others, but hadn't realised (or had forgotten) Pratt and Batista screen tested together; by all accounts Batista seemed to have Drax down pretty early one...

https://youtu.be/tGYIBWlJcro

silverharp · 15-05-2023 08:02AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120596053#Comment_120596053

between it and DC, there will always be a market for Batman, Superman, Spiderman and one or two others, pace them out and they will still be making them in 30 years plus they can start rebooting the likes of Iron Man and Captain America and the parents who watched these film as kids will bring their kids to them as nostalgia. What wont happen is Eternals or Shang Chi films being churned out over the next decade or that whatever new characters they base movies on will be instant hits just because its a Marvel or DC film.

Over time probably the best thing is to close Marvel down/absorb it into Disney and just make movies as and when

pixelburp · 15-05-2023 10:54AM

Wait, so we're now pivoting from "the MCU is dying" to "Marvel Studios will be no more"? 🙄 Paging Foxtrol, paging Foxtrol... 🤣

Worth baring in mind that the biggest IP in the entire Marvel catalogue - the X-Men (at least, before the MCU kicked off) - haven't yet made their appearance as bonafide members of the MCU. Not even hinted at, baring the now-legally-allowed mention of "Mutants".

Even after 2008+ and Fox clinging to the licensing, I daresay the arrival of Prof X and friends remain a potentially huge switch-up in the MCU. The universe could keep going for years more just on that demographic of characters alone - that bench is huge.

silverharp · 15-05-2023 11:06AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120598661#Comment_120598661

there is a reason we dont watch as many westerns as in the 60's, either the genre gets played out or the companies lose their edge, I cant see why super hero movies would buck the trend, I'd bet heavily against MCU's conveyor belt continuing uninterrupted for the next 10 years just on the basis that all trends peak and go into decline

Sudden Valley · 15-05-2023 11:07AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120598661#Comment_120598661

Are they not going to pause any new x-men movies since the Fassbender and co versions ended only quite recently? Given how badly the New Mutants film did I don't think there is much appetite for x-men characters outside of the core professor x and magneto teams.

Penn · 15-05-2023 11:18AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120598705#Comment_120598705

Cinema has definitely historically gone through trends, where particular genres are popular for a decade or so. I think part of why superhero films have seen a bit more longevity than usual is because it's a very adaptable genre that you can combine with other genres. Superhero/High school drama like the first few Spiderman films. Superhero/Spy like CA: Winter Soldier. Superhero/Road-trip like Thor Ragnarok. Superhero/Culture/Royalty like Black Panther. Superhero/Heist like Ant-Man. They're also planning on going a bit more horror with Blade, go R-Rated comedy with the next Deadpool as part of the MCU.

Look at how different each of the Thor films have been, or even the Captain America films. Each are superhero films with the same core characters, but are very different in terms of tone, style, content. Westerns, Sci-Fi, Buddy Cop, Action etc, all those genres which were dominant for their decade or so in the cinemas weren't usually as adaptable. A Western/High School Drama is just Little House on the Prairie. Of course it'll eventually go into decline, but the Marvel films have found a longevity by mixing genres to keep trying to provide something different.

pixelburp · 15-05-2023 11:19AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120598705#Comment_120598705

The superhero genre only compares up to a point though. There wasn't this entirely untapped sub-universe of stories Westerns never touched 'cos of rights issues. There's a good reason Fox jealously retained the X-Men IP for as long as they did; it can't be underestimated just how large that bench of characters are. You could jettison the entirety of the current MCU roster - and still have more than enough in the X-Men to power a new universe. And you don't even have to keep the same genre, character to character.

Penn · 15-05-2023 11:35AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120598714#Comment_120598714

There are no X-Men films currently planned or announced as far as I know, but I'd say after Phase 6/Kang, the MCU might shift to be more centered around the Fantastic 4 and X-Men, with a reboot of the X-Men (all the Patrick Stewart/Michael Fassbender/Hugh Jackman will probably just be from a different multiverse and we'll get new actors and a reboot for all the X-Men).

silverharp · 15-05-2023 12:26PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120598773#Comment_120598773

The amount of material available to strip mine isnt that important to the popularity of the genre, probably less than 1% of good sifi will ever be turned into movies and goes in and out of fashion. Its whatever is front and centre of what kids are into gives the genre its importance as it drives family's cinema attendance and the whole merch side. Kids for example arent into Star Wars anymore so your audience is adults who liked it as kids so interest is kinda capped. If Mario is anything to go by, turning video games that kids like into films is going to be big which will dilute interest in Marvel going forward

Foxtrol · 15-05-2023 02:09PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120598661#Comment_120598661

😂

Sure let's just get it over with and shutter Disney altogether at this point? All that money is just not worth the bother

Foxtrol · 15-05-2023 02:19PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120597327#Comment_120597327

We don't know for certain but unless they are completely deluded it all points to them planning a reset - right from how there was no post credit scene after Endgame, to no 'big bad' being intro'd in phase 4, to them holding back F4 and X-men.

They definitely didn't get it right and are learning some lessons but Guardians isn't an outlier at all and audiences do 'just continue to tune in'. Last year MCU made up 3 movies in the top 8 and the year before Spider-Man nearly hit 2bn, twice the take of the second placed movie - all of that with the audience knowing their movies were coming to streaming quicker than in the past.

Foxtrol · 15-05-2023 02:32PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120599058#Comment_120599058

Mario is nothing to go by, it is just another cartoon that there have been throughout the time of the MCU. That movie was was near pure nostalgia, they can't get away with that in another movie unless they hold off for a few years. As for other video game IP, they've done Sonic already and there isnt that much else out there. If it eats any share it'll be of other cartoon movies.

Biggest risk of competition for the MCU is if Gunn can get things together with DC. I really like him but I'm not sure he has the range to make it work across a universe, especially with characters that don't necessarily fall into his usual approach - an approach that has been very hit and miss at the box office. Not sure if duplicating the MCU formula will work either, though it has to be better than the road DC have been taking.

15-05-2023 02:42PM

Went to see on Saturday. Would put it as one of my most enjoyable cinema trips in a long time.

pixelburp · 15-05-2023 07:45PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120599058#Comment_120599058

The Baby Yoda mania has shown there's still enthusiasm for Kid level Star Wars TBH, you see the backpacks and dolls everywhere. The flatlining is happening with adults, whose response to the nostalgia bait has been variable at best.

And as I've said, the X Men is a big chunk of Marvel that'll be guaranteed to be a big thing. Marvel are taking their time because it's likely they know they're having to compete with iconic prior actors.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120598714#Comment_120598714

New Mutants partially failed cos as with many Sony X-Men swings, they made a bags of it all. The production was a hot mess IIRC and it's no great surprise it flopped. But I'd not put that on the shoulders of the Mutants themselves.

I just never got the sense Sony really knew how to work the X-Men: the ones people liked made by a sex pest - so that didn't help bed down the goodwill. The reboot films started strong enough but the dive off the cliff was pronounced; Dark Phoenix was a bit of a disgrace if I'm honest, and a truly ignoble end to a swing that had promise. Jennifer Lawrence effectively derailing her character and the film's didn't help.

Then there's Logan, which is so far off on another planet, such that it exists in its own ecosphere - like Guardians as its own thing. I suspect we'll never get a Marvel treatment like that again anytime soon. It's also one of the best films I never want to watch again.

flazio · 15-05-2023 08:59PM

X-Men was never a Sony project, it was 20th Century Fox. Spider-Man on screen is owned by Sony while The Incredible Hulk is a Universal Studios property.

Foxtrol · 15-05-2023 09:22PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120601240#Comment_120601240

Neither Sony nor Fox knew how to work with what they had with their characters and nearly completely ignored a key element of it.

It actually ties into Penn's earlier point regarding the sub-genre.

Some of Feige's notes to Sony for Garfield's Spider-man was why they were trying to run him out of high-school so quickly. Fox did the same with X-men, there was little focus on the younger cast outside of an odd scene, the focus was always the older actors.

What MCU did so well in Phases 1 -3 were to bring together a bunch of different characters who were very different from each other and brought their different perspectives, which you then saw change and grow overtime. Tom Holland's Spider-man brought heart to Infinity War through his innocence.

I'm not surprised they're only now having him 'grow up' more when they have Ms Marvel and likely young X-men characters to fill the gap of teenagers. Spider-man will now move on to deal with the challenges of early adulthood, likely alongside a few other characters they've introduced of that age.

flazio · 15-05-2023 09:43PM

Sony are actually doing quite well with Spider-Man. OK Morbius was a mis step and Venom fell off a cliff, but we are mere weeks away from a highly anticipated Spider-Verse movie with another one next year and their collaboration with Insomniac Games for their PlayStation games have been flying off the shelves.

pixelburp · 16-05-2023 06:07AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120601240#Comment_120601240

Aye my bad. Was thinking of the Spidey properties when typing and getting them mixed up. But stand by the point, confusion on studios notwithstanding: Fox just didn't seem to know what to do with what was, at the time, the biggest IP in the Marvel stable.

silverharp · 16-05-2023 07:50AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120599699#Comment_120599699

its not inevitable that MCU hands the mantle to NCU, there might be none, but you just know they are cooking up a Zelda movie and it will take in a billion. The question is the sustainability of big budget Marvel films, they arent in the breakeven businesses so their 200m + film need 800-1bn to turn a profit. I just see these slots being taken up by other competition and not super hero genre as such. Plus they tied their hands that they cant make Captain America and Iron Man going forward for example.

Sudden Valley · 16-05-2023 11:27AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120602180#Comment_120602180

I thought Falcon was now Captain America so will appear in new movies. The DCU and MCU have had a mix of family and more sophisticated movies that I dont think the NCU can ever have.

Penn · 16-05-2023 11:35AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120602995#Comment_120602995

I think what silverharp meant was the actor/character, so Chris Evans/Steve Rogers. Even though the mantle of Captain America has been passed on, the MCU has still lost the likes of Steve, Tony, Natasha.... characters who have been mainstays since the start and became big draws.

But obviously, actors/characters have to move on, otherwise we end up with Batman/Spider-Man stuff where we get constant reboots of the same characters with new actors, re-telling new versions of the same stories again. It'll probably happen with the MCU eventually when it's fully lost all its appeal and main characters, there could be a full reboot of the whole thing. With so many interconnected films and characters, they can't really reboot one like Iron Man without rebooting them all.

As for the Nintendo Cinematic Universe, I don't see how it relates to the MCU/DCU side of things. It's like comparing the Fast & Furious universe and spin-offs to the MCU. The Mario film could definitely lead to Donkey Kong spin-offs etc, but them being successful in their own right doesn't mean it'll have an effect on the MCU.

johnny_ultimate · 16-05-2023 11:56AM

I’d be hesitant around declaring a video game film adaptation craze until we have more than one mega hit. No doubt there’ll be a gold rush now, but exceedingly few games have the wide cultural appeal of Mario, and even something like Sonic has been a modest hit rather than absolute juggernaut. Even within Nintendo, you’re into diminishing cultural recognition beyond Mario and perhaps Zelda (Pokémon films have been coming out annually for the best part of three decades).

Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3

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