General Premier League Thread 2022-23 - mod note in OP 12/03/23

yourdeadwright · 26-01-2023 12:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120160158#Comment_120160158

I agree with you as i said player are expected to do different things & there coaches are fine with that,

But try telling the media & your average fan that your not expecting a new 86 million pound attacker to score that many goals ,

The 4 i mentioned are already getting judged that way,

To say its not already is just disagreeing with me for the sake of it don't agree with it but I'm saying its happing already

https://talksport.com/football/1308173/antony-man-utd-compared-arsenal-nicolas-pepe-gabby-agbonlahor/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-11665819/Antonys-86m-arrival-Man-United-meant-solve-clubs-right-wing-crisis-hasnt.html

https://theathletic.com/4118652/2023/01/24/antony-manchester-united-expensive/

SlickRic · 26-01-2023 02:59PM

if we're going for someone to invent the idea that wide forwards are judged on mountains of goals, it's probably Cristiano Ronaldo to be fair.

Fitz* · 26-01-2023 03:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120160158#Comment_120160158

I do agree with you, and others, that players do have differing roles across different positions. Like your LB example, the likes of we'll say Thiago & KDB are not being judged the same as they have different roles within their teams. Roles can even differ when players transfer to different clubs. I'm very Liverpool centric with my examples here but Gini Wijnaldum switched from an attacking goalscoring midfielder at Newcastle to a controlling more defensive midfielder at Liverpool.

But one thing I will say is, surely Antony was signed for more than just 'hold the width'?

I always say judge a young player moving to the PL after a season. Let them adjust to the league, new country etc. While Antony's fee was not chosen by himself, it will be something used against him, especially given the position he plays and output. I'd again agree with you that ~10 goals would be a decent return for a debut season, there will be a big expectation to kick on from there again the following season. For a £80m attacker, there has to be a couple of USPs, be it constant chance creation through playmaking, dribbling, workrate, crossing etc or goals. Affecting games. You need to have a couple different weapons in your arsenal IMO. You can't be resigned to just a filling a positional role that any sort of a two-bit quick winger can do. This time next year will tell us the real answer I think.

It's why Grealish was getting criticism the past 12 months - he was playing Pep's system but there wasn't too many examples of where he was affecting games etc. A recent purple patch in terms of output has masked that again. Grealish is 27 and experienced in the PL, he doesn't get that 'first season in the PL' lee-way

SlickRic · 26-01-2023 05:00PM

in all seriousness, the Antony bashing is fun, but it's just fans being fans. there's not a lot to read into it.

because of the fees, and because fans are so desperate to have someone to bash, the likes of Antony, Grealish, Nunez, and recently Gakpo too (even though it's a lesser fee) are targeted for insults.

in Antony's case, Utd were so ridden over the price for him that rival fans will obviously thrive on him not really affecting games. but we all conveniently forget, because we want to banter, that very few signings hit the ground purring. that's just common sense. it's hard to bed in quickly to how a team is playing. now, do I think Nunez has had a better start than Antony? Yes. And does Antony get a fraction of the abuse? Yes. but in the cold light of rational thought, we won't know about any of these players definitively for at least a year. if they're flying before that, it's a bonus.

for example, if you've noticed, Grealish has been very good for most of this season now - a huge improvement on last season.

27-01-2023 01:23AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120161045#Comment_120161045

Ah come on of course anothy was signed to provide more then width, but that is what he has been doing a lot this season, (last night he got to play narrower and actually got more chances) but when a discussion comes about saying he was bought to score lots of goals and he is not played in a way to be scoring lots of goals it was worth a mention how wide he plays.

Obviously the conversation around his ability is much more nuanced but there really wasn't any point in making it with that poster, given his goals per 90 numbers, of all the things, you could critique him over the op picked one of the worst too (given the numbers of the players he compared them to) but the whole post was a mess anyways as had been pointed out by many at this stage.

Grealish got critisised because he wasn't getting games, he is starting a lot and will pick up assists and goals here and there for city but even still his numbers aren't huge they never will be but if he plays and city win no one will say anything bad or deffo not the majority of people. He is also keeping foden an actual goal scoring wide player out of the team which also tells us that pep isn't looking for a primary goal scorer in that position

27-01-2023 01:28AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120161530#Comment_120161530

If you are going to bash him though I hope some good points are made and not what we got here :)

The thing about Antony though is he is quite polarized among united fans he is nearly heading towards fred level of over reactions from our fan base, so you might not be seeing much if the critisism but it is there.

Nunez is probably the opposite I suppose well backed by the Liverpool fan base (I think) but starting to get more critisism form the general media?

Quazzie · 27-01-2023 05:26AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120160958#Comment_120160958

Cliff Bastin scored 150 Goals primarily as a winger for Arsenal back in the 1930s. There's probably a few before him too. Scoring wise players have always been a thing, just as much as non scoring wide players have been.

~Rebel~ · 27-01-2023 05:35AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120163584#Comment_120163584

Billy Liddell was scoring 1 in 2 from out wide for Liverpool throughout the 50s too.

wanderer100 · 27-01-2023 09:44AM

“Sean Dyche expected to be appointed Everton manager today” according to Sky

thebaz · 27-01-2023 09:50AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120164030#Comment_120164030

was realistically a choice between Dyche and Big Sam , thats what everton have become

OmegaGene · 27-01-2023 09:56AM

What happened to the ex Leeds fella ? I thought he was a shoe in going by the media yesterday

breezy1985 · 27-01-2023 10:06AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120164089#Comment_120164089

He was never gonna take on Everton. Was a terrible match and doubt he was ever in the running. The lazier sections of the media just seem to have a generic list of out of work managers that they throw out for every vacancy.

Fitz* · 27-01-2023 06:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120163489#Comment_120163489

And I'm very sure that he has been signed to do more than just stay wide, but I just haven't see that yet. I'm not writing him off either, but he will need to show more next season. In a fee different areas. I think most people can agree on that?

Most of the time, you can see a player having certain qualities or attributes and you know that they will be a success once they settle down. Not every player hits the ground running when moving leagues or clubs. I think Liverpool just got lucky with Mane & Salah - now maybe that was earned through top level recruitment or coaching by Klopp - and so now they are the barometer for wide forwards in the league over the last few years.

There's a #5 playing for the league leaders. He's played excellently this season. But for majority of his time in the league before that, he looked very average at best. When it clicks, it clicks.

retalivity · 27-01-2023 06:44PM

Gordon to Newcastle for 40m. For all the bad news and terrible decisions around Everton this last few months, getting 40m for him is a scoop

27-01-2023 09:45PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166745#Comment_120166745

I'm agreeing with you of course he was signed for more but in the context of the conversation happening it was just one point, that if a player is wide alot (a bit like salah this season maybe? Heard people saying this) they just aren't going to be getting loads of good scoring chances.

He could do with showing more now he has had some poor games or patches in games, some of it is down to the system, some of it may be him adapting and some is just him being really poor on the ball at times, he is very good technically so I think that will come back soon.

Mane and salah were great but they aren't barometers at all, they were great players and a product of the system, if some manager shows up playing kloops system where they want the wide (narrow) forwards scoring loads then they could be judged accordingly. I mean look at firmino with those two a central forward but one who didn't score many goals but did a lot more for the team.

Players can fulfill different roles any different positions. If haaland, Nunez, Kane or whomever bang in goals from playing as a central forward no one in there right mind will be thinking the wide players need to putting up salah mane numbers

wanderer100 · 27-01-2023 10:28PM

Moises Caicedo has put a post out on his Instagram basically trying to force a move out of Brighton. Only question mark is whether he's going to Arsenal or Chelsea

Fitz* · 27-01-2023 11:12PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120168062#Comment_120168062

Arsenal trying hard to buy an energetic central midfielder, with defensive tendencies. Arteta said Partey came off tonight as a precaution as he has a minor injury.

In other news, that North London based PL midfielder that is at the center of sexual assault allegations had his bail extended again for a third time today.

Necro · 27-01-2023 11:50PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120164160#Comment_120164160

According to the Athletic Everton did speak with Bielsa and he proposed a mad idea that he'd take the under 21s till the summer and his backroom staff would manage the first team. If Everton weren't joint bottom of the league and in a serious relegation scrap it might not have been the worst idea in the world to give them some stability which has been sorely lacking for years but right now it just seems mental!

y0ssar1an22 · 28-01-2023 12:09AM

player power has certainly gone too far, and its a defence chelsea will use in that FFP argument.

longer term contracts are better for the game as a whole. too often now players run down a contract and leave for free, and demand a signing on fee equaling what they think a club would pay for them.

the result is money leaves the clubs and goes to the players.

of course there is nothing wrong with running down your contract. equally there is nothing wrong with signing a 10 year contract.

is tapping up officially gone now?

i'd love to see a manger/owner take a hard line and say fukkit, go on strike, we aint selling you. you're wrecking your own career cos you have 3 years left here.

theoneeyedman · 28-01-2023 10:23AM

"is tapping up gone now" - are you fuckin serious??

Just today, Caicedo pushing to move while way within his contract.

y0ssar1an22 · 28-01-2023 10:33AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169030#Comment_120169030

is it officially gone was my question. cos if not, something needs to be done about it

StringerBell · 28-01-2023 11:03AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169063#Comment_120169063

Was only ever a premier league thing wasn't it, or an FA thing. Never mattered beyond that, but it's foolish to think anything can actually be done about it anyway.

StringerBell · 28-01-2023 11:04AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169030#Comment_120169030

How is that an example of tapping up?

ctrl-alt-delete · 28-01-2023 11:24AM

A club like Brighton can't afford to be turning down massive bids for players like the Caicedo one. What they do need is time to sort out a replacement, and the timing of this one does not leave them too much time.

Drumpot · 28-01-2023 11:32AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169030#Comment_120169030

Having world cups in countries for sports-washing purposes and similarly allowing owners of clubs who kill journalists and have close ties with war criminal Putin is possibly a bigger issue that the sport should address?

thebaz · 28-01-2023 12:27PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169225#Comment_120169225

fear its turning into a bit like the great Southampton team under Poch , that team was torn apart with transfers , thers only so much departures Brighton can take, before an ineviable decline begins.

Cookiemunster · 28-01-2023 01:56PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169225#Comment_120169225

Normally you'd be correct, but in the last 6 months they've gotten over £80m from the sales of Cucurella and Trossard and another £20m off Chelsea for Potter. They don't need to sell him.

Caicedo still has 3 1/2 years on his contract. They'll still get big money for him next summer.

ctrl-alt-delete · 28-01-2023 02:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169592#Comment_120169592

Oh I know that, but this is the model of these clubs. You buy, nurture and hopefully sell for profit.

With the contract length, they are in a strong position and could hold out to the Summer - they have given him time off until deadline day - one would imagine avoiding potential disruption to the squad but you could also read other things from that I suppose.

tayto lover · 28-01-2023 03:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169592#Comment_120169592

An injury or lack of form in the meanwhile and they'll not get much for him. Take it when it's on offer is the wise course of action.

Fitz* · 28-01-2023 03:44PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169627#Comment_120169627

And don't forget Caicedo was only replacing Bissouma, the sale which was pre-empted. Brighton are doing excellent with that in recent seasons. They are operating on a sort of Porto/Benfica model, and it's working as they grow as a club.

They were able to pre-emptively replace Maupay with Trossard and Trossard with Mitoma, Cucurella with Estupinan etc etc.

They've taken a chance on players like Denis Undav, apparently have very high hopes for Evan Ferguson & have signed a young Argentinian midfielder, Buonanotte (who I would assume will be the McAllister replacement in a year or two). Developing a couple of players per position and one of them being a star is key to this model. Maybe the new kid signed from Cork City this week is the Evan Ferguson replacement in time.

General Premier League Thread 2022-23 - mod note in OP 12/03/23

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