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Enoch Burke turns up to school again despite sacking - read OP before posting

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,756 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    I don't know how this lad will ever be taken seriously again in employment be it in education or outside of it.

    Mainly because of how he dealt with the manner and how his mammy and daddy need to show up and cause a scene.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,929 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    WRC appeals are heard in the labour court. appeals from there go to the High Court but only on a point of law not on the substantive issues.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭CPTM


    It's mad really when you consider that essentially this is about two people up against each other fighting for the exact same thing - the right to live freely, away from something society has pushed on them without their agreement.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,502 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    It's a school though, so there is expressed reasons for gross misconduct.

    Serious bullying, sexual harassment or harassment against an employee, student or other members of the school community  

    Violent/disruptive behaviour 

    Seems clear cut to me, but sure nothing would surprise here.

    they are still obliged by employment law to follow it.

    Indeed they are, but that is a 2 sided coin, it is also incumbent on the employee to adhere to the law.

    He hasn't.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    How many times do you say he/she him/her on a daily basis directly referring to people , it’s not very many times I guess. So whatever your beliefs it’s easy to avoid.

    in enochs case he obviously can’t share a space with the person


    having said that I honestly can’t figure what “they” means in this context



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,929 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    They is the third person singular pronoun just like he/she and him/her



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,360 ✭✭✭RoyalCelt


    HIS NAME IS ROBERT PAULSON

    HIS NAME IS ROBERT PAULSON

    HIS NAME IS ROBERT PAULSON



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 258 ✭✭It is a Dunne Deal


    WHERE IS JOHN ROGERS?



  • Posts: 7,272 ✭✭✭ Magnolia Hissing Youth


    i would assume the dept of education would make payments if the school hasn’t got the funds necessary?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,395 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    I'm not sure Enoch is that concerned with the money, this is surely a matter of principle with him. So presumably the hearing will be limited in what actions are open to it based on the reported/ disputed facts. And that's why he went I guess. The school may try to bribe him out but if he's not for taking that bait, then this could go on for a long time yet. I'd reckon he has his eyes set on getting the case into the higher courts. I'll bet the school dearly wished they had played this differently from the start.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,856 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    The school made a serious boo boo in having the Principal prepare a report that contained findings and conclusions without giving Burke the opportunity to respond.

    They made a second and possibly more serious boo boo in reading and discussing that report at a board meeting, attended by the Principal but to which Burke was not invited.

    Both of those issues will cause the school a big headache going forward as it can be argued that the report is flawed and that Burke didn't get fair play because it was discussed in advance of a disciplinary hearing. I don't know how the school will overcome that. This ain't finished by a long shot.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,502 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    No, he can't compel a court into ruling on what he thinks he was suspended for.

    All courts have to employ facts.

    Not "Burke Facts".

    Every single high court judge who has had the displeasure of having him in court have not entertained what he thinks he is in court for, I can't see that changing.

    If he does get fired it will be for gross misconduct.

    Off to the WRC where I imagine the guards will be called and the case thrown out. Rinse and Repeat.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,855 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Why should he have been invited to the Board meeting? He's not a Board member.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,756 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    Of course money is important for the Burke's they've got to keep their lifestyle going some how.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,140 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    If the issue really was the use of pronouns, he could have just decided not to use they/them, and then dealt with the consequences of that. At that point (assuming there were any consequences) he could have made an actual case about his beliefs conflicting with the instruction.

    But as it is, he decided to make a big scene and get himself suspended for that instead - probably knowing full well that he wouldn't have been suspended for the use of any pronouns (and knowing that it was rare that he'd be in the position to use the pronouns in the course of his work in the first place).

    This has nothing to do with the actual use of pronouns, and everything to do with the Burkes' ongoing theatrics around their religious and social persecution complex and desire for publicity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,861 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I agree with you on that. At the very least, the argument that the Board has been prejudiced is strong.

    Those mistakes could see the Principal and board members having to resign, Burke will claim a win, but the next principal and board will just be more careful following procedure.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,855 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Nothing was pushed on him. We all have to comply with workplace policies, whether we individually agree or not. All he had to do was not engage with a pupil who isn't in his class. He's not the victim here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,032 ✭✭✭daheff


    Personally I think this is a mistake by the judge. Each issue should be dealt on its merits alone. Refusing him the injunction because Burke is not complying with a separate court order, and at the same time admitting Burke had a strong case, is a poor judgement imo.


    This is compounding another poor judgment whereby Burke was allowed to leave prison without purging his contempt.


    I'm at a loss to understand the judiciary's decisions here.



  • Posts: 14,708 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Silly question I’m sure, but is John Rogers former AG John Rogers?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,502 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Serious misconduct is straight to stage 4 according to the Department of Education Circular, which the school is compelled to follow.

    In the cases of serious misconduct at work or a threat to health and safety to children or other personnel in the school the stages outlined above do not normally apply and a teacher may be dismissed without recourse to the previous stages

    Stage 4 is disciplinary hearing, which he is entitled to attend. He has to be furnished with why he is being faced with the hearing 7 days before it.

    Also he is allowed 2 reps at the meeting, normally this would be a colleague or a union rep, not his cult family screaming and chanting.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,861 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Thinking about this, the clever thing for the school board to do would be to suspend Burke without pay until such time as he apologises for his behaviour and commits to following school policy in relation to addressing pupils.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,254 ✭✭✭✭hynesie08


    Whatever your thoughts on burke, There isn't a union in the land that would allow an indefinite suspension without pay go ahead.



  • Posts: 15,362 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I don't know, much like the contempt of court, it would be within his power to end it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Suspending him without pay would be regarded as pre-judging the outcome of the hearing.

    i.e. by withholding his pay, you're effectively saying he's in the wrong before he's been heard, and thus he'd say he cannot get a fair hearing, and then the school is stuck with him forever.



  • Posts: 7,272 ✭✭✭ Magnolia Hissing Youth


    Mate have a look at the shítshow he turned the meeting today into and ask yourself why Enoch wasn’t invited.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,771 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    The argument isn't that he should have been there , but that his case should not have been discussed in that forum as it might be considered prejudicial.

    The two sides dispute the fact that it was discussed however.

    The Judges view was that the allegation was a valid reason for a temporary injunction until such time as the actual facts could be determined , but he refused to grant it because Burke was refusing to adhere to an injunction of his own so the Judge felt it unreasonable to grant an injunction to him when he was refusing the honour the injunction that the board had on him.

    In other words the Judge determined that Burke couldn't have it both ways.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,855 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Can't imagine that he's a signed up member of ASTI or TUI.

    Though indefinite suspension doesn't sound feasible. I hope the school are getting expert HR/legal advice, as the man on the street, or the man on Boards really has little clue about how best to progress this.



  • Posts: 14,708 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The school had a Solicitor at the hearing today (which the Burkes objected to), and have had a Barrister on the case since the first injunction application, so it’s fair to assume they are getting expert legal/HR advice.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭CPTM


    I definitely wouldn't call him a victim. Generally when there's an adult and a child scenario, the victim is the child and the adult is someone who should know better.

    But I'm not sure I agree with your take that it wasn't something pushed on him. I know for example, if I were a teacher in a school where Enoch was a principle who was surrounded by like-minded people, and they created a policy that told me to ignore a student's pronoun preference, I'm trying to think about how I'd feel about it, or what I'd do about it. Wouldn't you tell Enoch that you disagree with the policy and you wouldn't be going along with it? Part of me feels like I should be able to do that without being suspended.

    But maybe you're right.. Maybe I'd just agree with whatever they're asking me to do but then live life according to my own belief system. There are quite a lot of teachers out there who do that on a day to day basis. For example, I think there's a policy that says you can't hug students anymore. But I know many teachers of baby and junior infants who nod along to such requests but know rightly that if there's a 5 year old in their class who has fallen over and just needs a bit of comfort, they're going to give them a hug to help them through the moment.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,856 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    I'm talking about a meeting that happened months ago. The school had the disciplinary report prepared by the Principal. It contained findings and conclusions drawn up by the Principal despite not having heard Burke's side of the story. There was then a meeting held whereby, even a High Court Judge agrees, the report was discussed which it shouldn't have. It's like having a secret disciplinary meeting before the disciplinary meeting if you will.



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