Ireland running out of accommodation for Ukrainian refugees due to surge in non-Ukrainian refugees?

Well that'a a load of nonsense, and demonstrably so -

With that in mind, it seems bizarre that you only need to go a few comments deep on any news article about Irish to read of "elitist" Gaeilgeoirí, dripping in privilege, and Gaelscoileanna where "yummy mummies" drop off their darlings as a marker of "social status". Ross O'Carroll Kelly's charicatured D4 locals were 'Sorcha’ and 'Fionnuala’ for a reason.

But there doesn’t seem to be a reason for this preconceived notion that the language belongs to the middle class. Of course, there are Gaelscoileanna in middle class areas, but more than half of Gaelscoileanna in Dublin and Belfast are in working class areas and, as is true of any school, reflect their local communities.

Another hot take that has surfaced is the idea that ever-increasing demand for Irish-language education stems from racism, insinuating that Gaelscoileanna exclude children whose parents come from abroad or from various ethnic groups in our society. At first glance, some school policies require that parents have fluent English or Irish, a potential barrier for some, but thankfully the story doesn't end there.

Gaeloideachas offer information in French, Romanian, and Polish among other languages, encouraging parents to enroll their children. Some Gaelscoileanna even implement buddy-schemes, offer language classes to support parents and provide SNA support for children whose mother tongue is neither English nor Irish.

Debunking the hot takes around Gaelscoileanna

The ESRI says half of immigrant primary pupils are in schools with large numbers of children from overseas – where they make up more than 20pc of the student population.

In comparison, 40pc of the country’s 3,300 primary schools have no immigrants at all.

Immigrants are more likely to attend designated disadvantaged schools. The differences between disadvantaged and non-disadvantaged schools can be quite stark — they imply an increasing ghettoisation of those schools designated as disadvantaged.

Immigrants are under-represented in Gaelscoileanna, mainly because of the reluctance of non-English speaking families to learn an additional new language. Higher proportions are found in urban and larger schools and in designated disadvantaged schools.

The ESRI says that enrolment criteria in Irish schools tend to favour settled communities, particularly where parents are required to sign up well in advance and preference is given to the siblings of those already in the school.

Much migration is relatively recent and many immigrants are very mobile. As a result, children will end up in schools that are under-subscribed. Irish parents with ‘insider’ knowledge of the educational system are more likely to successfully negotiate access to their preferred school. In contrast, immigrant parents can be ‘outsiders’ in terms of knowing how the system operates.

ESRI warns schools over ghetto risk to immigrants

(Bold emphasis my own)

You say it there yourself - immigrants are under represented in gaelscoileanna. There doesn't need to be a policy of exclusion because they self-exclude. Such self exclusion can be reinforced by enrollment policies e.g. where a child needs to have a basic grasp of the language already and it would be detrimental to their learning if they weren't enrolled.

Like voter ID laws in the US - on the face they can look harmless, but in reality act as a barrier for certain groups.

The situation in Belfast is obviously different because of well known cultural and sectarian issues experienced in the city. I thought you'd know that.

It's obviously heading into extremist territory - the real question is how have we got here. How has the ground gotten so fertile for extremists to be able to cultivate hate.

If we han understand the how and the why, perhaps we can figure out what needs to be done.

Wait a minute, I’m not saying myself that immigrants are underrepresented in Gaelscoileanna, that’s what the data suggests. I wouldn’t expect anyone to take my word for anything, it’s why I try and source data that’s at least somewhat objective.

Your claim of Gaelscoileanna being the perfect invention for the leftie middle class and that working and immigrant classes do not send their children there is what I was referring to as nonsense, and I demonstrated why it’s nonsense, using actual evidence, not just ideas I’d pulled out of my arse for which there is no supporting evidence whatsoever.

I cannot see any scenario where this would be the actions of mere "concerned local citizens"

Really? Large disorganised crowd chants "get them out" because... it wants them out.

What's so hard to imagine about that scenario? No need to bring National Front, Defence Leagues or any one else in to things.

Yeah if I was living in one of those centres those concerns would be at the forefront of my mind. If I had just arrived in the country I mightn't necessarily be aware that Ireland has little tradition of that kind of racist mob violence.

How can you be certain of that? Likely some of them just putting on a brave face...

But that’s a conclusion you’ve fabricated entirely out of nothing.

Yes it’s true that immigrants don’t tend to send their children to Gaelscoileanna, but that doesn’t mean Gaelscoileanna are a perfect invention for middle class lefties when we also know that Gaelscoileanna have been established in working class and migrant areas, and we know that immigrants don’t have the same insight into the Irish education system as their Irish counterparts, and we know that immigrants children are generally enrolled in DEIS schools, predominantly in working class areas.

Middle class lefties, absolutely do not enrol their children in schools in working class areas, Gaelscoileanna or otherwise! There’s simply no need for any plausible veneer about language, that’s just something you’ve invented, I suspect to take a pot-shot at middle class lefties, who generally enroll their children in Educate Together schools (which is why ET schools are massively oversubscribed), and there’s plenty ET schools in working class areas too, where there are immigrant children in attendance.

Now, here’s where you’ll want to hold onto your pearls. Middle and working class Catholic school Boards of Management tend to have notions about themselves, they’re a real fun bunch to deal with. Every year it tends to be the same thing when they’re scrolling down the list of admissions applications and they’re unable to pronounce foreign names, they tend to pronounce them like “Fcuk!”, “Bollocks!”, “Another one, Jesus!”, you get the idea 😁

Every year it used be the same deal, having to argue with them that every child in Ireland has a right to an education, and they could not discriminate between students based on nationality, ethnicity or their own general prejudices. The thing was see, the majority of applicants were Catholics themselves, or were members of a Church in communion with the Catholic Church, so they were much closer in principle to the teachings of the Catholic faith and Catholic education than say a lot of their Irish counterparts.

How did I know this? Well from talking to them and meeting them at mass, Scouts, sports and other social events. Had to laugh one time when the priest saw me at an event and he commented “Jesus you’re everywhere!”, and being the arsehole I am, I responded “Really Father? 🤨”, inviting him to question all he’d been teaching all this time. He didn’t appreciate my sense of humour 😬

Now, before you go accusing me of being a middle class leftie, I’m certainly not. I’d be considerably more conservative right-leaning politically, socially and economically, which is why I promote the value of education and ensure that every child has access to the same opportunities as my own child has. There is no evidence to support the belief that children whose first language is not English have any negative impact upon the educational attainment of other children in the classroom. A far more influential factor on any child’s academic achievement is the support of their parents, or indeed lack thereof, which is why it’s important that all children are supported in education, and not just the focus solely being placed on children who don’t need as much support in the classroom.

Contrary to your belief, Gaelscoileanna AREN’T popular, they’re gaining in popularity, but that isn’t difficult given they only represent about 5% of schools in Ireland, and predominantly in working class areas as opposed to your ideas of their preference among middle class parents. Factors which influence parent’s decisions to enrol their children in Gaelscoileanna primarily relate to their own desire for their children to learn the Irish language, as they fear it may become a forgotten language given their own lack of proficiency from their own time in education. It’s certainly not motivated by any notions of keeping their children away from the influence of immigrant children. That’s entirely your own notions, fabricated out of nothing and not even remotely based upon reality. You’d know this though the more you actually talked to parents who send their children to Gaelscoileanna, many of which are multidenominational in their ethos which is another factor which makes them more attractive than the traditional Catholic school education.

Your idea that their popularity is based upon giving parents a plausible veneer for their elitist notions is frankly just absurd. You’re far more likely to find that sort of attitude towards immigrants and working class families in middle class publicly funded Catholic schools which imagine they are a law unto themselves because of their admissions policies which make entry for anyone they don’t want in their schools an arduous process, as though indeed like you suggested earlier- they have notions of themselves as private fee-paying schools. Reminding some people on Boards of Management of their legal responsibilities and liabilities doesn’t be long knocking some sense into them, even if they choose maintain their veneer of respectability - everyone knows it’s bullshìt and nobody cares so long as their children are receiving equal opportunities for an education which meets their educational needs 😒

They are, massively oversubscribed, because there's so few of them that there simply isn't enough to meet parental demand. There is competition for places in all types of schools particularly in the Dublin area where oversubscription is a perennial problem due to our increasing population, and the demand for the establishment of new schools.

I don't get the impression at all that Gaelscoileanna are, or will be used as a handy way for selecting out large numbers of immigrants or children from families with low educational backgrounds simply because the opportunities for that sort of behaviour already exist in schools, the vast majority of which are under the patronage of the Catholic Church (represented as a patron body by the Bishops of Ireland), leaving other patrons such as An Foras Patrunachta and Educate Together to fight over the scraps, or rather Patronage of the establishment of any new schools -

The move to revise the policy follows a formal investigation by the office of An Coimisinéir Teanga Rónán Ó Domhnaill into a decision not to award patronage to an Irish-medium inter-denominational school in north Dublin in 2016.

The bid for a school in the Drumcondra/Marino and Dublin 1 area was turned down despite the fact that the parents of 361 students had demonstrated their preference that Irish-medium education be available to them. Educate Together was awarded patronage on the basis that it had 622 expressions of interest.

Mr Ó Domhnaill concluded that the language provisions of the Education Act relating to the language and cultural needs of students, along with parental choice, had not been fulfilled by the department in the process to appoint a patron.

New criteria to remove obstacle to Irish-medium schools

Many Gaelscoileanna at second-level consistently rank towards the top-end of feeder schools in the country which send the highest proportion of their students on to third-level.

Some sceptics say their rise in popularity has more to do with middle-class families seeking to secure social advantage through exclusionist policies, such as Irish-language tests.

Despite more Irish language schools in working-class areas and more parents from non-Irish backgrounds vying to send their children, do accusations of elitism hold water?

Bláthnaid Ní Ghréacháin, CEO of Gaelscoileanna Teo – a national voluntary organisation supporting the development of Irish schools at primary and post-primary – says the problem is simply an issue of demand outstripping supply.

“We’re back to the age-old problem where parental demand isn’t being taken into account sufficiently.

“Parents seeking Irish-medium education will always be in the minority in a community, so voices will not be as loud as Educate Together, for example,” says Ní Ghréacháin.

“The oversubscription leads to disappointment on behalf of parents and creates pressure in the system. Invariably, when people are disappointed and their child does not get a place, this leads to accusations of elitism.”

Ní Ghréacháin says while parents’ interest is piqued by the schools appearance in league tables, parents are motivated by genuine interest for their children to be educated through our native language.

Why is it so hard to get a place in a Gaelscoil?

As a parent of schoolkids I ask why is it so hard to get a school place for my kids anywhere, yes.

And then I look around and ask why is it so hard to see a doctor, to find a guard when you need one, to find somewhere to live. FFS what a mess.

I don’t think the government parties are capable of such strategic thinking.

In any case, in the three seater constituency in which Ballymun is in. Sinn Féin’s TD, alleged mass murderer Dessie Ellis, won 44% of the vote. Almost two quotas. The right wing parties would need to see an exponential increase on the 1.5% they achieved at the last election.

You are trying to have a reasonable civil discussion about something you want to talk about.

You have no interest in a reasonable discussion when anyone asks you something you don't want to talk about.

I'm genuinely interested on why you think this policy is a benefit to Ireland.

Is the absolute scutter from the likes of Joe and his buddies in the media that will lead to the "rise of the right"

Sometimes it feels like they actively want it

He doesn't care.

Heard on the radio this morning that housing completion needs to be 40k this year and 75k there after. We are looking at a 50% shortfall in housing each year on existing demand which has not been met.

If it breaks 30k this year and 40k next year it will a big achievement for any Govt.

Joe will end up in some cushy job,like environmental officer for a building developer or a state funded quango. Tom Parlon part 2.