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Enoch Burke turns up to school again despite sacking - read OP before posting

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,929 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    The only principle at stake here is how a grown adult should behave in public. You seem happy to excuse his behaviour, others don't.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,395 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    I'm not excusing his behaviour, I'm seeking to point out how it can be understood.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,840 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    His beliefs are his own. Nobody can do anything about that. Once he starts to behave in a particular way it becomes an issue.

    To use a different example: a person can have a belief (based on whatever influence) that homosexuality should be punishable by death. They won't get in trouble for simply believing that (nobody would even know).

    It's if and when they start expressing that belief around their place of work, that it's going to be a problem. "It's my belief" isn't going to be any kind of defence.

    I don't really think it's that complicated.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,929 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    but you're not doing that. You said "his behaviours and beliefs are linked. One is the result of the other". that is complete bollixology. His behaviour is a result of his isolated upbringing and lack of socialisation. A more socially adjusted person would not behave that way.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭DownByTheGarden


    I dont think he is going to get on to the late late show at this point. And I dont think there is a book deal for him in going to jail again, but i suspect they might be his goals.

    He is unemployable now for sure, so if he gets fired he is done.

    I saw that NUIG story looked him up and look what i got back. They do llok like the love to be victims. He must love jail.




    Post edited by DownByTheGarden on


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  • Posts: 7,272 ✭✭✭ Magnolia Hissing Youth


    No, no. Listen mate I went to a school with a heavy influence from the local church. The Parish Priest used to just saunter into school and classrooms as it suited from what I can gather, we had school masses, confessions, prayers the whole lot.

    Thing is you won’t see me going to work when I’ve been suspended or having shouting matches in public places when something goes against what I believe. What’s horribly ironic about all of this now that I’m typing here is that he caused a scene inside a church, surely that would incur the ire of the floating man in the sky?

    If churches are God’s house, I don’t think he’d appreciate Burkes behaviour within his house. I certainly wouldn’t tolerate it in mine. What you have here is a religious zealot, using religion as an excuse to spread hate about things he doesn’t agree with. It wouldn’t be acceptable if he was blowing the school to pieces for his “beliefs”, so why is it okay that he continues to terrorise the students and staff in non violent ways?

    He’s been suspended AND barred from showing up— but he does it anyway. He’s not proving a point or standing up for his beliefs, he’s making a show of himself. Just like the rest of his family and seemingly all they’re good at.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,315 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    No, that was at the request of the child and their parents.

    Burke made a fool of himself at a public event in front of the entire school community and it was quite obvious, unfortunately, what child he wished to single out. That's on Burke. If he'd have just STFU there would have been no problem, the child was not one of his pupils.

    Misinformation? Right, yeah. More disingenuous dissembling on your part, more like.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Though old, this is a very informative post from 2014, from the thread I previously linked you too.

    If you can't be bothered to click the link, notably....

    This family has frequently been documented to engage in a specific agenda that targets gay rights, from their involvement in opposing the Civil Partnership Bill in 2010, defamation of David Norris later that year during his presidential campaign, their subsequent Supreme Court challenge to Civil Partnership, and other campaigns featuring reliance on linking homosexuality to pedophilia and beastiality.

    Someone asked why can't an accommodation be made for Burke?

    Why should any accommodation be made for him (or any of his family), when they are completely unwilling to give any kind of accommodation themselves?

    In fact, not only will they give no accommodation, they actively campaign to oppress the rights of everyone and anyone who doesn't hold the same beliefs as them.

    They, and their beliefs, deserve no such accommodation.



  • Posts: 14,708 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    So it was the parents who contacted Burke to inform him that their child was to be referred to as “they”?

    Are you sure about that?

    Again, from the information publicly available on this, Burke objected to being told to refer to the child in the way requested, rather than protesting about the child themselves. And just in case you or anyone, wrongly, says that I support his views, I don’t, but you don’t get to make up facts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,855 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    What accommodation should he be given? Either he does his job and teaches ALL his pupils with a little bit of dignity and respect, or he doesn’t. The link between beliefs and behaviours is his personal choice. Lots of people have to swallow their beliefs in doing their job, including thousands of non religious teachers working in religious schools. Why should he get special treatment?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,315 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    95% of primary schools in Ireland do exactly that - and require that their staff, believers or not, instruct their pupils that Christianity is factually true.

    What a silly post

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,395 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    And yet things have barely moved on from your or my days in school: https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2021-11-16/10/

    Many parents daily accept the role & influence of religion in the education of the children and this influence informs the practicalities (behaviour) of the day to day operations of schools and how students are treated.

    So please explain why this situation is OK and yet Burke's consideration of his beliefs is not OK.

    At the risk of being very repetitive, the one solution here is to remove all influence of religion from education and let state/ civil legislation & practice prevail entirely. There would be a complete shitstorm if this was brought in next school year and many parents would be to the fore in strenuously objecting to interference by the state.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,855 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    They get into everyone’s brain sadly, along with brake pad particles and exhaust fumes from ICE vehicles.

    Strange how you don’t get as outraged about that as you get outraged about the rights of skinny white women to win beauty pageants. Are you sure that you’ve got your priorities right?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,663 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose




  • Posts: 7,272 ✭✭✭ Magnolia Hissing Youth


    The difference between Burke and everyone else is simple:

    everyone else is turning up to a school they’re suspended from, despite court orders barring them from doing so. That’s not religious belief. That’s attention seeking.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 336 ✭✭NaFirinne


    It is generally accepted that individuals should not be forced to do something that goes against their sincerely held beliefs, as this would infringe upon their freedom of conscience. This principle applies to people of all faiths, as well as those with no faith. In the context of a workplace, accommodations may be necessary in order to allow an individual to fulfill their job duties without compromising their beliefs. However, it is important to also consider the needs of the employer and to find a balance that is fair and reasonable for all parties involved.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,315 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    You're not the first poster to suggest that. So he gets a fine. Then he doesn't pay the fine. Then he's up in court again. Then what, jail? So how does that get us anywhere we're not already at?

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,929 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    So it was the parents who contacted Burke to inform him that their child was to be referred to as “they”?

    Nobody said that, not sure if you are deliberately misreading others' posts.

    Burke objected to being told to refer to the child in the way requested

    It was the manner of his objection that has led him down the road he is now on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 336 ✭✭NaFirinne


    It is important to recognize that individuals should not be discriminated against or treated unfairly because of their beliefs, even if those beliefs are different from our own or if we disagree with them. Everyone has the right to hold their own beliefs and should be treated with respect and dignity. At the same time, it is important to consider the needs and rights of all parties involved and to find a solution that is fair and reasonable. Accommodations may be necessary in certain situations in order to allow individuals to fully participate in their job or in society, while still respecting the rights of others. It is important to approach these situations with empathy and to consider the unique circumstances and needs of all individuals involved.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,813 ✭✭✭joe40


    I agree that there should be separation of Church from education but we inherited a system since the foundation of the state and is not easily dismantled.

    However most schools with religious patronage have Lay principal, staff etc and the Church ethos is not front and center.

    My daughter went to a loreto school and they were still able to fly rainbow flags and celebrate LGBT week.

    Remember the school in this controversy is a church of Ireland school.

    In general schools do separate dogmatic church teaching from everyday education and management. Accommodating the wishes of this pupil is a case in point.

    My preference would be no church involvement at all but accusations of hypocrisy are not borne out in the real world.



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  • Posts: 14,708 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    If you go back and read the HD’s post, the poster said Burke “singled out” the child for bullying, he didn’t. Then HD said it was the parents and the child who singled out the child by making the request, but I haven’t seen any report of the parent/child contacting Burke directly. The school on the other hand, did single out the child when all staff were contacted to inform them of how the child wished to be addressed.

    This again is more misinformation about Burke, he didn’t single out the child for special treatment, he objected to the schools policy in relation to transgenderism on religious grounds. If the school had sent a circular to staff relating to the policy, and without their being a particular child at the centre of the instruction, his objection would most likely be exactly the same as it goes against his religion, not against a particular individual.

    I do agree that he behaved very badly, and should have used the correct forum to dispute the allegations. But come on, let’s stop making **** up.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,915 ✭✭✭Feisar


    What's ridiculous is the pupil isn't even in his classes. Realistically how many interactions would he have had with them. He's all about his rights but forgetting about his responsibilities. The first and most important being, don't be a cnut.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,140 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa



    And I dont think there is a book deal for him in going to jail again, but i suspect they might be his goals.

    I doubt they make him much money, but he does have two books self published already: "The Hedonism and Homosexuality of John Piper and Sam Allberry: The Truth of Scripture" and "The Pied Piper: Is John Piper and New Calvinism Destroying the Church?". Both seem to be ragging on Evangelical preacher John Piper, who is a proponent of what is known as "Christian Hedonism" - that's not nearly as exciting as it sounds. It's basically the position that there's nothing wrong with enjoying believing in God - rather than merely seeing it as a duty that pleasure plays no part in. Burke seems to like his belief pleasure free. It should be noted that John Piper isn't gay and doesn't seem to have anything nice to say about homosexuality, so the title of the first book is a bit odd.

    Sam Allberry is an Evangelical pastor that identifies as having "same-sex attraction" and claims that this in itself does not prevent one from being a good Christian (once one doesn't act upon it, of course!). This is clearly far too liberal for the bauld Burke to handle, so he wrote a buke.



    Edit: and I meant to say that the harassment and disruption they engaged in at Sally Maaz's inquest is absolutely despicable, and that should have been a bigger story than this ridiculous stunt Burke is engaged in now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,228 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 336 ✭✭NaFirinne



    A Christian cannot do something that they would view as going against God, as they believe this would be sinful.

    This raises the question of whether there is a place for Christians who refuse to compromise their beliefs in the modern day workplace.

    Non-Christians may believe that the workplace should come before personal beliefs, but for a Christian, nothing can come before their relationship with Christ.

    This raises the question of whether Christians who are unable to compromise on their beliefs should be allowed to work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,855 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    So what’s your plan for accommodating the thousands of non religious teachers who are required to play along with, or actively teach religion?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,855 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Teachers in church schools are judged on their religious ethos at interview stage- marked out of 10 for how good a Catholic they are (or appear to be).

    Dont tell me that religion isn’t front and centre of church schools.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 926 ✭✭✭buzzerxx


    On Thursday 16 January 2020, Galway Circuit Court awarded damages of €13,035 against the University.



  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Spare me.

    The Burkes do not know the meaning of the words "respect" or "dignity" or how to respect the rights of others.

    They have demonstrated this on multiple occasions.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 107 ✭✭Gunner5


    The school is a Church of Ireland school. They had respected the students wish to be called they/them so I don't think it's the school here that done anything wrong. ( I am open to correction)


    Secondly, Enoch Burke was home schooled and had no moulding of the churches in Ireland at all... his beliefs were pushed on to him from elsewhere



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