St Annes Park Planning Application

forgottenhills · 13-05-2021 2:42pm

markpb wrote: »

I could be wrong but I think any developer can ignore the LAP/CDPs by citing the instruction from the previous minister for housing about increasing build density and removing fixed limits for heights. That’s nothing to do with SHD, you can do the same with regular planning permission request to the local council.

Those plans IMHO pandered to local requirements to keep new builds to a minimum, favoured lower density semi-detached routinely blocked or limited any sensible height. They were a sop to home owners who hate apartments. They did nothing to ease the housing shortage and provide homes to young people. They were democratic in name only.

The same is true of regular planning permission once granted by ABP. I find it hard to understand this line of thinking. If a developer followers the non-SHD row and is denied, they will appeal to ABP. If ABP grant it, it’s hard to challenge. If the developer uses SHD, it’s the same outcome. What has changed?

Democracy means the control of decisions by a majority of the people involved, not by one person's opinion on what's best for a community. Ordinary local people and community groups could previously control to some extent what gets built by lobbying their local elected representatives, they can't do this with SHD applications.

Planning decisions to local authorities can be appealed. SHD decisions cannot be appealed. https://www.pleanala.ie/en-IE/Observation-on-a-SHD-Application-(Prescribed-Bodie

Talk about railroading. SHD is a perfect vehicle to shove plans through, plans such as building on precious school grounds and sports pitches where the calculation often is that there isn't a cohort of extremely wealthy or highly organised people nearby who can afford to take the risk of launching an extremely expensive judicial review. Show me the democracy in that.

markpb · 13-05-2021 3:02pm

forgottenhills wrote: »

Ordinary local people and community groups could previously control to some extent what gets built by lobbying their local elected representatives, they can't do this with SHD applications.

The problem is that all the ordinary local people decided that higher density development was great… somewhere else. The last city development plan was a joke, it had a few token high-rise buildings but nothing like what was required to meet the housing need.

And even then people were angry. People in Santry complained about high rise there when Northwood is right beside it. People in Phibsboro complained about high rise there even though they’re a stones throw from the city centre. The list is endless. DLR did the same thing, deciding that the handful of taller buildings in Sandyford were abhorrent and came up with a new plan to stop any more of them. The whole situation is ridiculous.

forgottenhills · 13-05-2021 4:49pm

markpb wrote: »

The problem is that all the ordinary local people decided that higher density development was great… somewhere else. The last city development plan was a joke, it had a few token high-rise buildings but nothing like what was required to meet the housing need.

And even then people were angry. People in Santry complained about high rise there when Northwood is right beside it. People in Phibsboro complained about high rise there even though they’re a stones throw from the city centre. The list is endless. DLR did the same thing, deciding that the handful of taller buildings in Sandyford were abhorrent and came up with a new plan to stop any more of them. The whole situation is ridiculous.

Democracy isn't perfect but it is far preferable to no democracy.

There is no way at present for schools and clubs to stop grounds and pitches they rely on being built over once the application bears the magic word SHD. And your saintly developers, who are of course only thinking of the people trying to get a roof over their head, then don't even build the approved housing, they sit on the approvals seeking a quick buck from selling on. What percentage of SHD approvals have actually been built since inception? 10%? So please spare us the insinuations about developers and SHD working for the common good and knowing better than ordinary people what's good for us.

markpb · 13-05-2021 6:15pm

forgottenhills wrote: »

And your saintly developers, who are of course only thinking of the people trying to get a roof over their head, then don't even build the approved housing, they sit on the approvals seeking a quick buck from selling on.

Where did I mention developers at all or suggest that they are saintly? Mind that chip in your shoulder, it’s weighing you down!

Most of your complaints about SHD could equally be applied to the old system too. Land-banking and flipping with planning permission happened all the time, they’re nothing new. ABP approving playing when the local community opposed it also happened before and when it did, a JR was the only appeal mechanism.

As for your suggestion that ABP know better than ordinary people, that’s absolutely true. It’s their job to understand planning requirements and law better than the average person. It’s also their and councillors jobs to understand that the needs of society sometimes outweigh the needs of a few homeowners who would prefer not to have additional neighbours. Unfortunately it’s a job that neither have done particularly well at.

roddney · 14-05-2021 2:18pm

Just to bring this one a little back on track again.

This ruling covers the situation where an institution owns land that is currently used or was used as community facilities, such as sports pitches. Given how much school land is currently owned by institutions and z15 zoned in Dublin, this is significant.

In the situation before this ruling, an institution could happily decide it is more advantageous to sell land for housing development and there was no come back for the displaced clubs or schools.

This ruling goes some way (not yet fully known) to protecting the existing community use. It can still be appealed, where hopefully it will be upheld.

I think this is a really good thing, as the alternative whereby facilities can be sold for housing, and tough luck to the clubs and schools, was an extremely worrying scenario, given my 1st point on how much land is owned by institutions.

I support sale of land by institutions that is not in community use. I also support high rise development. I would even support re-generation and CPOing by LDA to make better use of suburban villages and transport. Sports facilities are sacrilege though.

roddney · 14-05-2021 2:44pm

Another thing, the developer could of course submit another planning application and address the community use.

For example 3 football (1 each soccer, gaelic, rugby) could be retained and upgraded to all weather grass pitches. There was 1 already maintained and mainly a community garden to the SE. It would require removal of blocks 7,8 and 9 but they'd still have a substantial development. The all weather could be played on more, so could compensate for the loss of the other 3. They could pay for upgrade of pitches in the park also to all weather to compensate for loss. This might also address the environmental problem of it being a feeding ground for brent geese.

If they came to arrangements with the displaced sports clubs they might still get some permission.

odyssey06 · 14-05-2021 2:51pm

roddney wrote: »

Another thing, the developer could of course submit another planning application and address the community use.
For example 3 football (1 each soccer, gaelic, rugby) could be retained and upgraded to all weather grass pitches. There was 1 already maintained and mainly a community garden to the SE. It would require removal of blocks 7,8 and 9 but they'd still have a substantial development. The all weather could be played on more, so could compensate for the loss of the other 3. They could pay for upgrade of pitches in the park also to all weather to compensate for loss. This might also address the environmental problem of it being a feeding ground for brent geese

Interesting idea, although all weather pitches wouldn't help the geese much as a feeding ground? I'm assuming it'd be some sort of astro. Unless it's not where they actually feed but just need some terra firma while waiting for the right tide level around Bull Island?

roddney · 14-05-2021 3:25pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

Interesting idea, although all weather pitches wouldn't help the geese much as a feeding ground? I'm assuming it'd be some sort of astro. Unless it's not where they actually feed but just need some terra firma while waiting for the right tide level around Bull Island?

To clarify I mean the high quality super drained grass pitches, similar to what Clontarf GAA already have. These are playable in most weather. Astro turf or 4g synthetic pitches have already been turned down by DCC and An Bord Pleanala due to geese.

Cyndaquil · 14-05-2021 11:20pm

I'm all for all weather pitches but it's hard to argue against the case for the geese

ozmo · 16-05-2021 4:03am

Cyndaquil wrote: »

I'm all for all weather pitches but it's hard to argue against the case for the geese

Its just the one though that was planned to replace all the current ones that will be lost. And rented not free to use.
And they didnt get permission to build one so its not even on the table anymore.

Cyndaquil · 16-05-2021 1:19pm

ozmo wrote: »

Its just the one though that was planned to replace all the current ones that will be lost. And rented not free to use.
And they didnt get permission to build one so its not even on the table anymore.

Well that's a mercy to be thankful for

downtheroad · 05-09-2022 6:26pm

Market are back with new plans for this site.

Marlet prepares fresh apartment plans for north Dublin site

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2022/09/05/marlet-prepares-fresh-apartment-plans-for-north-dublin-site/

neris · 05-09-2022 7:14pm

They've a massive hole in howth they don't seem to be doing anything with, hope St Anne's doesn't end up the same

bren2001 · 06-09-2022 11:55am

I was very much opposed to the previous development. They are putting in 6 playing pitches to be managed by DCC with this application. I don't know if I support it but I also don't know if I am against it anymore either.

New2cycle · 28-10-2022 8:08pm

Anyone know can a club team and a school co own an astro turf pitch? E.g club land + cash, school pays rest of the cash

odyssey06 · 28-10-2022 8:31pm

Refused again...

The refusal follows a Government department, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage telling the council that Dublin Bay is the most important site for the Light Bellied Brent Goose in Ireland. The council’s planner’s report concluded that the design and layout of the scheme demonstrates that the proposed development will provide a high quality residential scheme with a height, mass and scale which will sit comfortably within its surroundings. However, the report stated that there are “significant outstanding biodiversity issues” in its own Parks and Biodiversity report and in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage report. The planner’s report stated that the the scale of studies required across the existing Brent Geese feeding grounds and potentially across a number of winter seasons would be beyond the remit of a request for further information and therefore permission be refused...

The matter now looks set to be decided by An Bord Pleanala as Marlet now has the option of lodging an appeal against the council decision.

https://www.thejournal.ie/development-st-annes-park-580-apartments-refused-5906229-Oct2022/

John_Rambo · 29-10-2022 10:50pm

They fenced off the area thus creating an amazing, dog & human free area for the geese to peacefully graze. Wouldn't surprise me if they've attracted native curlews and other ground nesting birds.

Thelonious Monk · 31-10-2022 2:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119810388#Comment_119810388

I don't actually think the brent geese graze there any more because the grass has grown long, that's the funny thing. They graze short grass on football pitches etc.

Commoner · 31-10-2022 3:09pm

Brent geese are regularly seen grazing in St Annes Park. It needs to be protected.

Larbre34 · 31-10-2022 3:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119815625#Comment_119815625

It is being protected. These proposed development lands are not in St Anne's Park.

Here is a picture of the affected area (red) with the unaffected Park alongside. Loads of room for geese and people and sports.

This decision will be overturned on ultimate appeal and these units will be built.

Good job there isn't a massive housing crisis eh, or this delaying of vital development might actually be serious!

Thelonious Monk · 31-10-2022 3:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119815625#Comment_119815625

yes but since the grass was let to grow long in that part i don't think they do any more

Commoner · 31-10-2022 9:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119815666#Comment_119815666

But they are within the vicinity of St Annes Park. The vicinity around St Annes park encompasses an area of protected habitat and is not confined to just St Annes Park. Displacing habitats is also damaging and stressful to habitat and wildlife. We'll see what the European Union says about this. Non-compliance with EU environmental directives/regulations is a very costly error as we saw in the case of Derrybrien.

I'm not sure if the Irish Courts are the right place to be contesting this Developers repeat applications for building permits. I think the European Court of Justice have a panel of experts who know what they're talking about because Ireland has a poor record adhering to EU environmental law on planning matters.

odyssey06 · 31-10-2022 9:53pm

This development has big financial backing.

But instead of doing the study to comply with the regs... they keep appealing to the courts.

Seems to me there is a reason why they havent done the study - they already know the answer isnt what they want / need.

Thelonious Monk · 03-11-2022 9:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119815666#Comment_119815666

You are once again completely full of sh*t. You go on like you have inside information on these things, like how you said the traffic changes in fairview would be scrapped by September lol.

Anyway this matter is done now and nothing is getting built here.

https://www.thejournal.ie/councillors-block-housing-plans-st-annes-park-z9-zone-5909462-Nov2022/

John_Rambo · 03-11-2022 12:04pm

What's the future for the lands now? A mini wildlife sanctuary? Will the fencing stay up or will the developer turn to dirty tactics now by moving undesirables in to the space?

Gloomtastic! · 03-11-2022 1:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119827702#Comment_119827702

No idea. Questions could also also be asked what happened the money the Vincentian’s got from the developers. Not a cent has gone into the school, as was promised.

odyssey06 · 03-11-2022 2:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119827163#Comment_119827163

Let's hope this zoning sticks.

The intention with the original zoning 'residential' aspect was for example, accomodation for religious orders beside the school, or seminaries or such like. It was never intended to be used as the basis a large scale commercial development becoming the primary use of the land.

I doubt the land would have been disposed of by DCC to the Vincentians except with that intended zoning.

John_Rambo · 03-11-2022 4:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119828212#Comment_119828212

Serious? Bloody hell, they're a right pack of chancers! Probably went straight to the Vatican City.

It would make a cracking freshwater wetland to compliment the Bull Wall nature reserve. Like Father Collins park but less linear.

Gloomtastic! · 03-11-2022 8:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119828995#Comment_119828995

Too high up to be natural. If you’re looking for a potential wetland locally, there’s a triangle of land between Clontarf Golf Club and Mount Temple, underneath the railway bridge. That’s currently an overgrown swamp that’s not being used by anyone. Would be ideal.

crushproof · 19-11-2022 10:02am

So is that it then? After all that, a prime residential site close to the city will be closed off and unused forever. People moan about the lack of housing yet oppose development based on a few geese who have hundreds of other acres to graze on. And let's be honest they don't really give a dam about the geese, just typical NIMBYS.

St Annes Park Planning Application

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