BoJo banished - Liz Truss down. Is Rishi next for the toaster? threadbans in OP

Leroy42 · 14-11-2022 11:01AM

The British people did vote for an extreme type of Brexit, it was all in the deal that Johnson was elected on in 2019. Before that election one could argue that the ERG types had hijacked Brexit to their own version, but the UK were given the choice at that election and gave Johnson and 80 seat majority off the back of it.

Yes, it is clear that the No side lied and undertook some pretty dodgy practices in the campaign, but the electorate have had two chances since then to call a halt to the madness and have decided to back it instead.

It is therefore hard to argue that the voters don't want exactly what they have gotten.

Bass Reeves · 14-11-2022 11:08AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119871928#Comment_119871928

You are incorrect. The UK had signed a withdrawal agreement before that election. The y had to agree the minute details during the following 12 months to formally leave ( that was there choice they could have managed the exit over a longer period). After the deal was complete Johnson wanted to tear up the complete agreement.

The British people did not vote for the extremes the ERG wanted. The ERG tail has wagged the Tory dog for the last six years. Sunak needs to sideline them completely.

Leroy42 · 14-11-2022 11:32AM

The overall nature of the deal was well known. The oven ready deal. Get Brexit Done. The special place for NI, the border controls, the lack of FoM. All of this well known and was part of the deal.

Being a member of the Sm or CU was categorically not on the table. Once that decision is made the rest is just a consequence.

The public know that they were voting for. All of the MP's that tried to stand up for a much closer union were voted out of office, or kick out of their party. The public had no issue with that.

The TOry party ha ve the ultimate responsibility for this, but the public also need to take a long hard look at themselves. They were given two chances after the ref to shape the way the deal was going to go. They made it clear they were perfectly happy to see Johnson deliver the extreme version on Brexit.

14-11-2022 11:46AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119872065#Comment_119872065

"Extreme" is just a word that people use to smear anyone or anything they happen to disagree with, even if it's a perfectly moderate position.

"Extreme" Brexit, and above, "ERG are extremists". No, not "extreme version of Brexit", rather, "The British people opted for a version of Brexit that doesn't align with my political perspective".

The word has lost all reasonable meaning in much political discourse.

Leroy42 · 14-11-2022 12:29PM

Well, based on a range of Brexit options, ranging from the closest to the most distant relationship, the ERG want the most extreme. As in the furthest to a particular side.

There can be no debate about that really. The ERG, and then the public, took the most extreme version of Brexit that have have been taken and made it look like the only option.

FraserburghFreddie · 14-11-2022 02:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119872303#Comment_119872303

I favoured a close relationship with the EU(if there had to be a brexit)but as I recall, the prospect of BRINO was viewed with gloating glee on the various brexit related forums here(which,with hindsight,doesn't appear to represent the general feeling of most of Europe, certainly not brussels)Despite that,it would have been(and still is) the best brexit option for the UK imo.

Strazdas · 14-11-2022 02:11PM

Former UKIP and BNP voters clearly voted for Johnson and the Tories in 2019 - that would equate to around 5m of their votes.

Nobody is suggesting that the Conservative Party per se is hard right / far right, but they definitely have that element among their ranks. Also, note how Farage has positioned himself as an Enoch Powell / BNP type in the last year or so. Patel and Braverman would certainly be of the same ilk.

ancapailldorcha · 14-11-2022 02:45PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119872688#Comment_119872688

No, there wasn't.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119872712#Comment_119872712

The whole party isn't far right but it's Overton window has certainly shifted in that direction and the right wing of that party is currently running the show.

14-11-2022 03:10PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119872712#Comment_119872712

What a lamentable attempt to smear the Conservative Party by association with the fascist BNP.

For some perspective, the BNP collected:

510 votes in the 2019 General Election.
4,642 votes in the 2017 General Election.
1,667 votes in the 2015 General Election.

UKIP came along in the early 2010s and disinfected politics by taking in the people who weren't fascists but who had moderate views on immigration and so on. The hardcore, actual fascists - the white supremacists and so on - remained within the BNP.

So UKIP fine, there's definitely a intimate relationship there.

But to throw out the BNP vote, as if the Conservatives are hoovering up millions of fascists, is beyond the pale.

14-11-2022 03:25PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119872712#Comment_119872712

The sooner the right of the Tories, and it’s support, break away into Reform the better IMO. Then we can see some clarity in what people actually support instead of sniping within the party, and among it’s supporters, about what a conservative is.

and IMO it ain’t Rees-Mogg and Braverman. It’s the likes of Rory Stewart and those others who were purged by Johnson

14-11-2022 03:26PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119873097#Comment_119873097

Rory Stewart? The man who hosts a podcast with Alistair Campbell.

Good riddance.

14-11-2022 03:28PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119873104#Comment_119873104

Yes, in which they disagree but engage like normal humans

good riddance to you lot into that new party

Quin_Dub · 14-11-2022 03:30PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119873027#Comment_119873027

Who do you think those ~4,000 BNP voters from 2017 voted for in 2019?

They went somewhere.

The general point is that as someone described it earlier, the Tory party "overton window" has categorically shifted to the right in recent years.

That doesn't mean that they are all now extremists , but it does mean that they have become more tolerant and accepting of those extremists within the wider party ranks.

ancapailldorcha · 14-11-2022 03:31PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119873116#Comment_119873116

That's how you can tell that the extremists are firmly entrenched - all dissent must be shut down.

14-11-2022 03:37PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119873123#Comment_119873123

Let's assume you're right, and that all 4,000 BNP voters opted for the Conservatives in 2019.

The Conservative Party amassed 13,966,454 in that election, meaning the BNP vote was 0.028% of their overall result. Nor did that 0.028% shift the Overton window. No political party would change tack based on this kind of absurd percentage.

You can see why I think this is desperate stuff. It's bordering on the embarrassing.

Quin_Dub · 14-11-2022 03:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119873148#Comment_119873148

BNP voters are obviously at the extreme end of spectrum and they likely migrated to UKIP or Reform parties rather than the Tories , but the fact remains that the Tory party have shifted towards the right in recent years.

Both in terms of policy and public rhetoric.

For example - Do you think that Suella Braverman or people of a similar viewpoint would have been in cabinet under Cameron or Hague before him??

Strazdas · 14-11-2022 04:13PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119873027#Comment_119873027

A simple question - what party did England's racists, bigots, xenophobes, anti-immigration types etc vote for in the GE 2019? It surely can't have been Labour, the Lib Dems or the Greens.

ancapailldorcha · 14-11-2022 04:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119873208#Comment_119873208

Remember that Farage stood several of his candidates down for 2019 so it's a given that those votes went to the Tories.

joe40 · 14-11-2022 04:30PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119871928#Comment_119871928

I agree up to a point, The Brits did return a massive tory majority in the HoC but because of the first past the post system this was achieved on something like 44% of the vote. precise number may be incorrect but I think it was definitely less than 50% of the electorate.

Another referendum on the actual Brexit deal on offer would have been more democratic. (may well have given the same result though) bearing in mind the original referendum passed by a slim majority with no actual details of the post brexit landscape.

ancapailldorcha · 14-11-2022 04:37PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119873381#Comment_119873381

42.6% IIRC, 13.96 million people out of a country of nearly 70 million. About 20%. Utterly disgraceful.

14-11-2022 04:38PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119873381#Comment_119873381

People point to that huge majority as being an overwhelming brexit supporting vote. The reality is that the Tories, at 43%, got only 30% more votes than a labour party led by the most lunatic socialist leader in its history. A guy who wouldn’t even sing the national anthem. Hardly a ringing endorsement for the Tories, and the false picture that that election gave (including giving Johnson an inflated opinion of his popularity) is now being wiped away

Akrasia · 14-11-2022 05:53PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119865405#Comment_119865405

The ERG are proto-fascists. - They're not totalitarians (yet), but the people in leadership roles in the ERG absolutely would take absolute power if they could manoeuvre their way to grabbing it. Their policies are not too far off the kinds of policies that Viktor Orban enacted to ensure that he would never lose an election again. (And the Tories voted to not Censure him in 2018 when they still had voting rights as MEPs)

They are a shadow group who refuse to name their members even though they are funded via tax payers money and they exist purely to subvert the democratic institutions of their country. They have used their internal 'whip' to force the Prime minister to enact policy positions favoured by their corporate donors rather than the manifesto promises they campaigned on at election time.

They promoted the hardest possible Brexit even though it was absolutely undeniable that there was no mandate for such an extreme form of Brexit.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/freedom-of-information/revealed-the-files-that-expose-erg-as-a-militant-party-within-a-party/

They are conjoined with the 'Institute for Economic Affairs' which is another shadowy 'think tank' which does not reveal it's source of funding but to anyone who's not deliberately choosing to see, is clearly funded by a small cabal of very wealthy individuals in order to promote extreme right wing economic ideology (laissez faire and 'trickle down' economics that result in the elites commandeering more and more of the resources in the state leaving the population increasingly impoverished... which we're seeing the effects of right now, with real incomes in the UK at their lowest levels in generations while the billionaires have never been more wealthy)

They were fully behind the 'Hostile environment' that set out to make the lives of immigrants so miserable that they wouldn't want to come anymore. They 'masterminded' the Rwanda policy of trafficking asylum seekers against their will and against international law to a developing country with the (barely hidden) implication that the conditions in Rwanda are so bad that it will discourage anyone from seeking Asylum in Britain)

They treat international law with absolute distain, and clearly entered into international agreements with the full intention of breaking them immediately afterwards (all the bullsh1t about 'technological solutions to a border in NI' that they knew would not work and result in the GFA being undermined with the likely return to 'the troubles' in Northern Ireland)

They are ultra nationalistic - they want Britain to dominate any international organisations they are a part of, and want even the 3 other countries of the UK to be fully subservient to the English parliament.

They have no respect for democracy, as demonstrated by their lies and rule breaking during the brexit referendum, and their lies and rule breaking during the Scottish Independence referendum, and their refusal to allow the people any say on the brexit withdrawal treaties, and the voter id laws they are bringing in that make it very difficult for people under retirement age who do not have either a drivers license or passport to vote in English elections

They have pushed through legislation that make protest illegal if it causes any inconvenience,

They have imposed draconian restrictions on the ability of workers to engage strike action, and are continuing to impose even harsher restrictions

So, yeah, the ERG, being the extremist wing of an already very right wing party are far right wingers in the context of European politics

14-11-2022 05:55PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119873783#Comment_119873783

The ERG are proto-fascists.

I stopped at this point.

What a ridiculous statement.

Strazdas · 14-11-2022 06:37PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119873381#Comment_119873381

Interestingly, it was Cameron himself who played a huge part in there being no second referendum. He openly sneered and belittled the idea of there being another referendum, saying the vote to Leave could only be a one off and could never be revisited. His arrogance left the UK up the creek and unable to extricate itself from the Brexit disaster.

He was either too arrogant or too stupid to understand the consequences of a potential very narrow vote to Leave and how this would leave Britain in an almighty, intractable mess vis-a-vis its relationship with the EU and the Single Market (I would go for both arrogant 'and' stupid).

FraserburghFreddie · 14-11-2022 07:28PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119873783#Comment_119873783

This is exactly the type of view held by a number of out of touch posters here which I have pointed out previously.A million miles away from the general view of the UK held by Brussels and the general population of Europe.

The Raging Bile Duct · 14-11-2022 10:11PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119793139#Comment_119793139

He was not commenting on the general view of the UK or its population, he was very specifically commenting on the ERG and the disruption they have caused.

I think the majority of people in the UK are fine people but the governance of the country has been an absolute clown show since the Brexit vote, held hostage by an unflinching ideology that has failed the country and its people utterly.

Akrasia · 14-11-2022 10:37PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119874190#Comment_119874190

If the general population supported these ERG policies the ERG members wouldn't keep their wider membership secret.

It's hugely undemocratic to run for election under a party manifesto when your allegiance is actually with a more extreme secret society that are subverting the party from within.

The majority of Tory voters don't know what the ERG is.

https://youtu.be/eWH44PDMgVY

14-11-2022 10:43PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119875053#Comment_119875053

Funny how you quote Braverman, or a video that largely relates to her - at a time when Braverman has concluded a deal on the illegal economic migrant wave with the French, only today.

This deal won't end the illegal migrant problem, of course, but it's a step forward. Good on Sunak for continuing to back Braverman despite all the lamentable attempts to effectively cancel her political existence.

And of course, elements of the Left are purple with apoplexy that Sunak and Braverman - both from immigrant stock - are leading the effort against illegal migration into the United Kingdom. Drives them absolutely crazy, as they cannot lean back on the "racist" card.

https://twitter.com/GDarmanin/status/1592070571550216193

Leroy42 · 14-11-2022 11:17PM

Is this the extension, at more cost,of the deal that was already there?

Taking back control by relying on other countries to deal with the problem.

14-11-2022 11:19PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119875076#Comment_119875076

Oh, you mean the fourth UK-France Channel deal in the past three years. This one will cost £63m, that's on top £55m Britain gave to France to help fund measures in 2021-22. Remind me again...how many migrants crossed the channel in small boats in 2021-22?

BoJo banished - Liz Truss down. Is Rishi next for the toaster? **threadbans in OP**

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BoJo banished - Liz Truss down. Is Rishi next for the toaster? threadbans in OP