Leinster v Munster match thread

aloooof · 24-10-2022 02:58PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787695#Comment_119787695

No, I'm saying if he's below the level required he shouldn't be in the wider squad at all.

What do you expect them to do after he’s signed the contract??

24-10-2022 03:02PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787716#Comment_119787716

I would have expected them not to offer him the contract to begin with tbh (to renew). I would have thought 4 years of having the guy under your nose should be ample time to assess him, especially when the head coach (then forward's coach) is a renowned former prop himself.

As I said, it's not specifically a criticism of just James French, more of a broader propensity by Munster over the past 10 years to carry guys on the wider squad who are barely Pro12 standard or below.

Lsdrugbyfan · 24-10-2022 03:03PM

developing French would mean Munster develop a homegrown tighthead.. and well they havent done that in awhile

awec · 24-10-2022 03:08PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787729#Comment_119787729

mod: this poster is banned, no need to reply to this trolling.

aloooof · 24-10-2022 03:12PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787727#Comment_119787727

You’re saying in October they shouldn’t have offered him a contract in January. It’s retrospective analysis.

And they’d also have had to sign someone else to fill a TH spot; maybe they tried and just didn’t have the budget.

Other provinces just don’t have the same depth Leinster have. That’s just the reality of it.

Sometimes teams sign guys. Sometimes it doesn’t work out. It really feels like nitpicking.

awec · 24-10-2022 03:14PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787727#Comment_119787727

If they don't sign French, who takes his spot in the squad?

Quin_Dub · 24-10-2022 03:22PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787772#Comment_119787772

Given that he never plays and other than the Wasps game last year this is the 1st time he's even made a match day squad , would it matter?

I'm not saying don't sign him , I'm asking why sign him and not give him any time on the pitch at all?

awec · 24-10-2022 03:24PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787801#Comment_119787801

Well he was in the match 23 at the weekend, so he is needed. They chose not to bring him on, but they could have been forced to bring him on.

They didn't give him time because he's obviously seen as a worse option than Loughman at TH.

He's clearly seen as a break-glass player, and I'm guessing his salary reflects this.

aloooof · 24-10-2022 03:26PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787801#Comment_119787801

would it matter?

Yes; under the safety rules, you need a substitute who is able to play TH to be able to name a 23 and play the game.

Without him, you’re down to a first year academy player on the bench, and one suspension / injury away from being unable to legally name a 23. (In practice, an AIL player would be called in, but that’s hardly a desired outcome either; the cure is worse than the disease, to put it one way).

24-10-2022 03:33PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787772#Comment_119787772

Obviously I've no clear idea. I'm not claiming to be an expert on tight head recruitment, and I do know that of all positions there is a particular scarcity for quality THPs.

I've also got no problem with teams taking a punt and trying to see if a guy develops, but there has to be a limit to how long you keep a guy around if you've kind of decided he isn't going to make the grade and you don't trust him in match situations.

I don't know equally the salary dynamics, but would Ben Betts be making far more money having spent the past 4 seasons or so in the English Championship than in potentially returning home to Munster?

aloooof · 24-10-2022 03:46PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787849#Comment_119787849

but there has to be a limit to how long you keep a guy around if you've kind of decided he isn't going to make the grade

He’s 24 next month. He's not Methusulah.

Ben Betts

I see....

24-10-2022 07:15PM

I think the Ryan thing was probably money. He probably got a pretty good deal with wasps and i think it was a multi year deal. Archer was on a one year deal. The choice was probably between Archer and Ryan, not Ryan and French.

Why are they carrying him? They are rebuilding and you have to carry raw with upside no matter how many years it is in the tight five. Leinster are the only province who never do that.

He did look really good against Wasps in the loose last year and hes probably very very cheap. So, hes a resource in a year where you arent expecting to win.

I’m assuming next year they either go NIQ at the top of the depth chart at TH, LH or Hooker, and/or find better depth options behind their young talent. Front row is definitely their achilles heel right now. Second row and back row are looking pretty good.

pickarooney · 25-10-2022 06:27AM

I'd be more curious as to why a player would continue to sign contracts worth pennies at 24 when it's clear he's never going to make it as a pro.

There must be an awful lot of players who themselves are gambling a lot - giving up everything to train all week for essentially nothing.

Let alone players at the pinnacle of the game who find themselves unemployed overnight through no fault of their own.

It's hard to see any of this (pro rugby with so many teams and large squads) lasting once the hammer falls.

cuttingtimber22 · 25-10-2022 06:37AM

Maybe he was not 100% fit? Maybe he had an injury in the warmup. We do not have the facts and probably best not to drag a player’s reputation through the mud without knowing those facts.

Munster needed to fulfil the fixture and it was clearly decided in advance who would come in and move across if necessary.

awec · 25-10-2022 08:35AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119789882#Comment_119789882

Well the "pennies" thing is relative, I'd bet he's still earning multiples of what most 24 year olds are earning, and a professional rugby player is a nice lifestyle for someone his age.

Don't think it's that surprising that most players will ride the gravy train for as long as they can.

Buer · 25-10-2022 08:51AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787849#Comment_119787849

Betts left Munster?

When did this happen?

pickarooney · 25-10-2022 10:22AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119790174#Comment_119790174

Do we have any idea what they earn? I would have thought 30 grand a year max at that level but I haven't really a clue. If/when their career ends they'll need to start something new from the bottom of the ladder.

awec · 25-10-2022 10:23AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119790543#Comment_119790543

You would have to combine their salaries with all the free stuff they get.

25-10-2022 10:36AM

Watched the game again last night, Leinster were even more wasteful than I remembered. Build up was pretty good but just time and time and time again either the wrong decision was taken or skills let Leinster down. Leinster should have scored another 20 points in this game.

Edit - also Jack Crowley is very good. Munster need to give him a lot more minutes. Question is where I guess, Haley is very valuable at 15 given how well he covers the backfield and is he going to start games at 10 ahead of Carbery?

Serbian · 25-10-2022 12:40PM

I seem to be somewhat in the minority on this, but I rate Haley and like him as a player. Thinking about Munster's strongest team however, it's looking more and more like Crowley is the answer at 10, so I think you have to give him the minutes there lest it end up like the Frawley situation where he's a 10, at least according to the national coaches, but can't get a look in there at the province.

Whatever you think about Carbery as a 10, he is a really excellent rugby player, so you're going to want to get him into your squad whenever he's available. Do you sit him on the bench at 22/23, or do you risk starting him ahead of your fullback specialist Haley, who would then likely completely miss out due to a lack of versatility?

leakyboots · 25-10-2022 09:52PM

Haley should be our first choice fullback, lovely player. Don't know why he hasn't gotten a look in internationally, his form in the past couple of seasons has deserved it.

I'd give Crowley a run at 10, he's chomping at the bit now. Healy seems to have plateaued a bit.

26-10-2022 09:00AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119793686#Comment_119793686

I rate Haley, one game that will always stand out to me was Munster v Ulster in Thomond a season or two back, Zebo got sent off early on but Haley covered the backfield as well as I've ever seen anyone do it and Munster won the game, but the answer to this is there just are players ahead of him in Lowry who is a far better attacker and Keenan who is just straight up better.

aloooof · 26-10-2022 09:29AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794406#Comment_119794406

That Ulster game as well, Sean French was on the other wing making his first start, which made it all the more impressive.

The other thing going against Haley tho is his lack of versatility in that he only covers 15.

Akrasia · 26-10-2022 09:43AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119791069#Comment_119791069

I think Crowley is ahead of Carbery at the moment, If it wasn't for the IRFU putting pressure on Munster to play Carbery, I reckon Carbery would start at 10 and Carbery would be covering him, or Haley at 15

aloooof · 26-10-2022 09:54AM

Crowley is surely likely to start start this weekend?

Over the next 3 weeks, there's a chance he could be looking at starting v Ulster, benching v the All Blacks XV, and starting v the South Africa XV, all at 10. That's certainly what I'd love to see.

irelandrover · 26-10-2022 10:01AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794406#Comment_119794406

I think Haley doesnt get in because Keenan is a better player.

I think Haley is a better full back than an other irish player (except Keenan) but his lack of versatility costs him. Maybe if he was far better than third choice he'd be worth it but Lowry is close enough in ability.

aloooof · 26-10-2022 10:07AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794611#Comment_119794611

I dunno, even without the versatility, I think I'd slightly favour Lowry; he's a better fit for the gameplan we're currently. (If it was under Schmidt, I think Haley would be a better fit).

Keenan pretty much combines the best parts of Haley with the best parts of Lowry, imo. Class player to be fair.

Jump_In_Jack · 26-10-2022 10:58AM

Haley was already capped for Ireland on the wing, where is the theory that he can't cover multiple positions coming from?

Former Former Former · 26-10-2022 11:12AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794863#Comment_119794863

I'm sure he can cover the wing, but 20 minutes off the bench in a world cup warm-up over three years ago isn't really proof of anything.

Haley is a good player and he'll be unlucky if he doesn't get more caps, but it's a competitive position.

aloooof · 26-10-2022 11:19AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794863#Comment_119794863

He's never started a game at 15 for either Munster or Sale, in 160 odd starts tho.

And, are you sure he played on the wing in that game? He came on for Conway and Larmour was at FB, so I'd have assumed Larmour would've moved to wing. (I've only ever seen him fill in there in a pinch. He might have been played on the wing alright, but that reminds me a bit of Joe playing Felix Jones on the wing in the 2015 warm-up games to see how he'd go there).

He's not really like Larmour or Zebo* say, who have spent a decent chunk of time in both positions.

(*I'm not championing Zebo for Ireland, in case anyone jumps to that conclusion).

Leinster v Munster match thread

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