BoJo banished - Liz Truss down. Is Rishi next for the toaster? threadbans in OP

Itssoeasy · 16-10-2022 03:37PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119752170#Comment_119752170

And what’s worse is it went on for the whole summer, so it’s not as if it was a smash and grab and they picked a candidate in a hurry. And some how liz truss was the best they could come up with.

I see the Home Secretary Suella Braverman is making noise about being PM, and maybe this I’ve watched too many documentaries and they gave a false impression of the qualities/experience a British PM should need and now it’s liz truss and Suella Braverman that are deemed good enough.

Akrasia · 16-10-2022 03:40PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119751202#Comment_119751202

The only alternative is to tax the rich.

The Tories won't want to do that. Will hunt force this?

Economics101 · 16-10-2022 03:41PM

Yurt2: "The UK could elect to raise taxes (particularly on certain passive asset classes or indeed corporation taxes) rather than imposing austerity."

If raising taxes is not imposing austerity on those whose taxes are raised, then what is it?

16-10-2022 03:44PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119752270#Comment_119752270

The British have encouraged a parasitic wealthy elite who have grown in wealth whilst everyone else has suffered austerity. Taxing the rich is leveling up not austerity on the rich.

tanko · 16-10-2022 03:49PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119751230#Comment_119751230

No, “everyone” most definitely is not going to suffer austerity, it’ll just be for the plebs.

The boom and bust cycles don’t happen by accident they’re engineered by the rich so that they can make themselves even more rich.

Yurt2 · 16-10-2022 03:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119752270#Comment_119752270

Austerity is typically associated with a severe cuts in public expenditure. Making asset owners in the upper ends of the wealth strata carry a heavier taxation burdern to protect the provision of public goods is not austerity.

Brussels Sprout · 16-10-2022 03:55PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119752245#Comment_119752245

Braverman is just about crazy enough to try and scupper any backroom deal and try and take a vote to the membership. The problem for her though is that the MPs control who gets to that final 2 via their votes. She'd need to be able to get more than one third of the MPs to back her, in order to get to the final two, which I assume, given everything that has happened recently would be a tall order.

Economics101 · 16-10-2022 04:19PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119752288#Comment_119752288

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119752317#Comment_119752317

Nice trick if you can manage to implement it. The very wealthy also tend to be very mobile. Also how far up the income distribution do you have to go to find the parasitic wealthy elite?

I suppose you could start with the Russian oligarchs, if you could catch them. And wealthy should nt be regarded as synonymous with parasitic.

Yurt2 · 16-10-2022 04:31PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119752439#Comment_119752439

People are mobile, fixed and tangible assets are not. Privitised utilities like water, extremely permissive tax treatment of corporations operating in the UK market (often reliant of tangible assets ultimately bankrolled by the taxpayer). Let them move to Monaco to avoid income taxes when they give themselves a salary, you can cut them off at the pass with tax treatment on their assets which are barely touched by HM Inland Revenue. Real wealth in the UK isn't the salaryman on the Tube - it's the individuals and corporations extracting rents on assets.

The choice is there, they are currently suffering low-growth in any case. Michelen star resteraunts in Mayfair might get upset - but I'd be minded to say "so what"? if the UK wants to be more productive, the answer isn't to continue to give the kid-gloves treatment to people who are not innovators or assigning capital in a productive manner, but merely practicing rent extraction on the economy.

16-10-2022 04:52PM

Indeed, these tax Dodgers have very few hospitable places to go. The UK has fashioned itself as the natural place to go. Let them **** off and find somewhere else as benign.

Spanish Eyes · 16-10-2022 05:02PM

Masochists who need/want to be PM. Why?

Economics101 · 16-10-2022 05:12PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119752506#Comment_119752506

What the UK needs to promote growth is not the daft tax cuts proposed by Truss and co, but productive investments in physical assets and skills, as well as reform the UK's nimby-friendly planning laws. You don't exactly do this by just "taxing the rich". Who would want to invest in the UK if there is such hostility to wealth? And you seem to make wealth synonymous with rent-extraction. This is not necessarily the case.

In any event my main point was that the UK is poorer for various reasons, and there is no simple way of totally avoiding the consequences of this by just taxing the elite.

Yurt2 · 16-10-2022 05:20PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119752765#Comment_119752765

I'm not proposing a crude "taxing the rich", but equitable taxation treatment on monopilistic assets classes.

A classic case is the railways in Britain. The state still provides the capital investment and risk, the owning companies extract the profit for "services rendered" (one supposes), outsource the labour which means lower-quality employment and wages across the board, the profit via innumerable reliefs is barely touched by HM Inland Revenue, and the corporation make off like bandits with the loot for a sh*tty unproductive service, increasing fares, and the entire thing unmolested by notions of innovation and investment in service from the owners.

That's "investment" everyone could do without. And it's repeated across the British economy in hundreds of sectors.

That's a policy choice. And the above is f*ckall good to anyone except the corporations and individuals extracting the profits. Jolly good for them, but across the economy, it's disaster.

breezy1985 · 16-10-2022 05:52PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119752765#Comment_119752765

Plenty of other countries tax the rich far heavier than the UK.

And guess what those rich people still invest.

Also no one is saying "just tax the rich" as a one fix catch all.

Akrasia · 16-10-2022 06:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119752270#Comment_119752270

Taxing millionaires and billionaires who grew their wealth by hoovering up bailouts and corrupt contracts, rent seeking and disaster capitalism is not austerity

16-10-2022 06:09PM

Evidence shows that giving money to the rich results in more money been horded in offshore accounts. The most productive use of money is in the hands of the poor where it gets spent. If there is more money in actual circulation then there is a much stronger incentive for business to seek a slice of that pie.

In essence money needs to circulate for it to be maximally productive, it does nothing resting in offshore tax havens.

This in essence is why quantities easing as implemented has fundamentally destroyed most of the economies it has been applied to.

ancapailldorcha · 16-10-2022 06:12PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119753066#Comment_119753066

The two usually go hand-in-hand. In 2011, the coalition government introduced legislation to open up NHS services to private providers while introducing draconian austerity measures. All straight from the Hayek playbook. Incidentally Hayek never did a day's work for the private sector in his whole life.

Packrat · 16-10-2022 06:17PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119752119#Comment_119752119

There was no austerity here - unless you count those of us outsiders who got a 100% pay cut as our jobs and businesses went up in smoke.

Welfare wasn't cut, the PS insiders were completely protected and for many, life went on as normal.

The people who use that stupid word the most have never experienced it nor understand it.

16-10-2022 06:20PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119753102#Comment_119753102

If anyone wants to see what happens when you cut taxes for the rich and corporation tax down to the bone, you just have to look at Jersey. This is the Singapore on Thames model. No trickle down economics in evidence whatsoever. Just abhorrent levels of hoarding wealth, none of it invested, huge mansions being built everywhere, supercars on the roads even though the speed limit on the island is 40mph, and only people who work in financial services are well paid. Other locals priced off of the island and there are food banks in St Helier. Serious problem of running out of people to actually keep the island running. It’s, in a microcosm and to an extreme, what would happen to the UK if libertarianism where given a free hand.

trickle down economics is absolute and utter BS

Yurt2 · 16-10-2022 06:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119753131#Comment_119753131

Welfare rates were absolutely cut in Ireland during the crash, I don't know what country you were living in.

The public sector for new entrants became a lot less attractive pay and conditions wise, and for in-situ public servants, there was a pension levy which amounted to a net pay cut of 4k a year for public servants on 80k or over (a public servant on 40k took a 1.5k annual hit in income after tax).

16-10-2022 06:25PM

They know it's bullshit, they just lie.

Economics101 · 16-10-2022 06:55PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119752827#Comment_119752827

The proper instrument for dealing with monopoly profits ("rents" in the sense of a surplus over what is necessary) is competition policy, which has stagnated in many countries. Where monopoly is inevitable, as in the case of a so-called "natural" monopoly, you need appropriate regulation. Trying to identify which profits should be subject to special measures for tax purposes is at best treating the symptom rather than the cause . Proper regulation gets to tackle the cause.

Your example of the UK rail industry is misleading. The network is now a nationalised company - Network Rail -quite appropriately as it is a classic Natural Monopoly. The train operating companies are a partly publicly-owned, and are heavily regulated. The labour force is heavily-unionised. There isn't a pot of identifiable taxable excess profit in railways.

PropJoe10 · 16-10-2022 06:55PM

Crispin Blunt now coming out and saying that he wants Rishi Sunak to replace Liz Truss, to restore the public's confidence in the UK government. How replacing the person that won the membership vote with the guy that lost the membership vote is going to restore confidence in the UK government is anyone's guess. The Tories have totally lost the plot and there needs to be a UK general election ASAP.

gmisk · 16-10-2022 06:55PM

Letters now appear to be going in to get rid of Truss....ha absolute shambles of a party

breezy1985 · 16-10-2022 07:25PM

No. 10 chief of staff now being accused of trying to get ministers to have clandestine meetings with members of the Russian Wagner group with the intent of changing UK foreign policy.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/16/no-10-chief-staff-position-untenable-lobbying-claims-labour-mark-fullbrook

Yurt2 · 16-10-2022 07:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119753472#Comment_119753472

Ah that's the chap being paid through his lobbying firm instead of being salaried so he can pay less tax.

Tories playing the public for fools

16-10-2022 08:20PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119753323#Comment_119753323

Well yes it would result in more confidence from the public (and the market's) because Sunak is a lot more competent than the bumbling Thick Lizzie.

The fact that the mentally degraded old fogies (and with a good dose of old empire racism hubris indeed also at 97% white) in the conservative party membership (44% over 65) chose Thick Lizzie over him is at this point actually a further point in his favour with the general public.

Capt'n Midnight · 16-10-2022 08:21PM

https://conservativehome.com/2022/10/16/its-all-over-for-truss/

Hunt is certainly a team player though, like other members of the Cabinet, he will be considering his future options – now that Truss has resuscitated him from the political dead.

A week is a long time in politics. And it will be a long week for Liz, if she lasts that long.

Danzy · 16-10-2022 08:52PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119752642#Comment_119752642

Just in Europe alone, Paris and Frankfurt and Geneva, and then the little places like Cyprus, Austrian banks, the German Landesbanks, Deutsche Bank which has a reputation for cleaning money etc etc

Loafing Oaf · 16-10-2022 08:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119753323#Comment_119753323

Truss is clearly a busted flush and going into a GE under her leadership would guarantee wipeout. They have to roll the dice again, and the fact Sunak ran and repeatedly debated against her in the leadership contest in itself enables him to paint himself as the anti-Liz in a way that might not be so easy for other hopefuls...

BoJo banished - Liz Truss down. Is Rishi next for the toaster? **threadbans in OP**

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BoJo banished - Liz Truss down. Is Rishi next for the toaster? threadbans in OP