Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

16-09-2022 11:47AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625464#Comment_119625464

Yeah, that's it of course. It's "sailing over the head" of whoever disagrees with your take on this. 🙄

Former Former Former · 16-09-2022 11:57AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119623763#Comment_119623763

It would be different things for different players.

That's exactly what it is. There's no way that Caoilin Blade and Brian Deeny could be going on the same tour for the same reasons.

For the bulk of these guys, they wouldn't be playing in the URC next couple of weeks anyway, but maybe we get a jump on prep for the 2027 RWC. Who k nows, maybe we'll find a bolter for 2023.

For a small minority of players, it's a chance to impress the coaches up close and personal and maybe skip the queue for the November tests. I'd say not more than three.

I think it will be a very useful tour for Ireland. @awec is right though, it's two fingers to the URC.

16-09-2022 12:14PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625677#Comment_119625677

I don't accept that it is two fingers to the URC really; particularly not if the IRFU have made some front line internationals available during this window who wouldn't ordinarily be available at this point in the season.

But even if it is, who cares? What do the IRFU owe to this competition at this juncture? Irish provinces have dominated it since its inception, winning it 13 out of the 21 years its existed. Regardless of what happens with this tour, the Irish sides will likely be at the business end of the competition once again this season.

The competitive integrity of the URC as a competition has more issues than this specific example.

Shehal · 16-09-2022 12:18PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119622360#Comment_119622360

Because as much was we care about the league we care about preparing as best as possible for the RWC even more... They can give out all they want, they just want to give out and if it wasnt for this tour they'd find something else to complain about so just let them moan and be miserable in their box for all I care...

ClanofLams · 16-09-2022 12:28PM

It’s a complete farce. Playing cheetahs etc won’t do anything to help get these guys to test level.

Dylan Tierney Martin is in Connacht’s 23 for tomorrow against Ulster, over the next month he would see game time against the two league finalists in South Africa, Leinster and Munster. Instead he’s on a rabble of a tour playing weak opposition.

The players will gain some insight into how Ireland operate etc but it doesn’t justify taking them away for three weeks. The absolute max is two guys make the World Cup squad, I would say it’s unlikely to be even that. This will have no tangible impact on how they perform given the length of time they will spend in camp pre World Cup.

pickarooney · 16-09-2022 12:37PM

Which two, Frawley and Baloucoune?

ClanofLams · 16-09-2022 12:41PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625876#Comment_119625876

I’d say they are the leading candidates and maybe one of Doak/Blade, the former more likely I think. Maybe one of them, maybe none of them.

They won’t be playing alongside too many if any from this tour and they will have a a few months together before and during the World Cup, I don’t think this tour will make a tangible impact on how they perform at the World Cup if they do make squad.

16-09-2022 12:49PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625828#Comment_119625828

Connacht have bothered to pick Dylan Tierney Martin only 6 times over the past couple of seasons, but now it's a tragedy that he'll miss sitting on the bench for a couple of games.

ClanofLams · 16-09-2022 12:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625929#Comment_119625929

He’s had injuries and he’s a converted back row (since around 18 I think) who is still only 22. With Shane Delahunt out this would have been a real opportunity for him to put down a marker.

Three of the Connacht players touring are in the 23 v Ulster, I’m not sure why Cian Prendergast isn’t but he would certainly see game time assuming fitness over the next month. They don’t exactly have great depth to begin with.

Connacht are facing the two strongest South African teams and Munster and Leinster. They’re an injury to Dave Heffernan or Kieran Marmion away from relying on Grant Stewart and Colm Reilly at hooker/9 and academy backups.

This tour is a disaster for Connacht. All for a rabble of a tour against weak opposition.

16-09-2022 01:12PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625973#Comment_119625973

He's 23, and converted to hooker over 4 years ago. He was on the same U20s side as Craig Casey, Ryan Baird, John Hodnett, Scott Penny, Ben Healy and Stewart Moore, all of whom have managed to rack up a lot more minutes despite arguably facing stiffer competition.

Jonny Murphy was keeping him out of a match day 23 regularly last season.

As numerous others have said; this tour means different things for different players. For the likes of Tierney Martin, Deeny, Illo, Milne etc it's about showing something to the coaching staff and getting used to the set up, and the style of play, so as to hopefully position themselves for the squads post next year's WC.

For other guys like Frawley, Baloucoune and Blade, there absolutely is something to be shown here, and the opportunity to find themselves in test squads for the autumn. I think Blade is a better player than Craig Casey right now, and at 28 he could absolutely still play a part for Ireland. Don't you want to see him get that opportunity?

Plenty of Connacht fans have moaned over the years when they've felt their players aren't getting enough international recognition, but don't recognise now that this is a pathway to that. Connacht need to build out more depth in any event; so the notion of dipping into academy players shouldn't be so startling.

Plus Connacht are going to go into the four games you've mentioned as underdogs in any event, regardless of the presence of guys like Dylan Tierney Martin or Sam Illo.

Former Former Former · 16-09-2022 01:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625973#Comment_119625973

This tour is a disaster for Connacht.

We're always hearing that Connacht players don't get a fair shake with Ireland. This is a chance for some of the guys to make an impression on Catt and Easterby that they wouldn't otherwise get. That's another way to look at it.

Prendergast was never going to be available v Ulster because he was in NZ.

ClanofLams · 16-09-2022 01:19PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626059#Comment_119626059

He was out from December to March last season. He made five appearances when he returned. None of those players you mentioned converted to hooker from back row, last season was the earliest possible period he could have expected to make an impact given that switch. He’s probably a 100-1 shot to make the World Cup squad, he would be far better served playing against better opposition for his province over the next month.

Something to be shown where? Ciaran Frawley having a good game against Griquas is going to tell us a lot about his potential at test level?!

Yes Connacht would be underdogs regardless it doesn’t excuse taking away first choice players like Blade and Prendergast for some nonsense tour playing second tier South African teams.

ClanofLams · 16-09-2022 01:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626074#Comment_119626074

A week long camp in Ireland would have presented the same opportunity without undermining provinces and the league.

stephen_n · 16-09-2022 01:25PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626108#Comment_119626108

Clearly the coaches don’t believe so. How exactly are you qualified to know that? Since none of us know the goals or the inner workings of these camps.

16-09-2022 01:25PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626099#Comment_119626099

It's not a tour where the results are going to matter. People seem to consistently miss this point.

Every single player selected in the squad has had limited to no time in an Irish camp for various reasons.

For some of these players (Baloucoune, Blade, Frawley, Deegan) - this tour is an opportunity to impress the Irish coaching team and get familiar with the systems. It is absolutely the case that impressive displays for those guys on this tour could see them in the full Irish squad in November, or very quickly able to be called in in case of injury.

For some of the younger guys, it's a first exposure to an Irish camp and the Irish coaches.

We know in the past the Irish coaches aren't overly concerned with the provincial pecking order if they think a guy is a fit for the style they want, with plenty of guys selected despite not starting for their province. But they do value time in the camp and familiarity with systems, which was why Ed Byrne was called out to NZ (despite arguably some more deserving alternatives), because he had that familiarity from previous time in camp).

I would strongly suspect here as well that Toyota are underwriting a chunk of the costs of this tour, and that is part of why it's happening. These guys will gain more from being together in a squad, learning the systems and being trialled against a different style of rugby to what they typically see and experience.

ClanofLams · 16-09-2022 01:32PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626125#Comment_119626125

Take out same put in similar. None of us know either whether this is a financial gain for the IRFU I presume, unless I missed an article somewhere?

Former Former Former · 16-09-2022 01:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626108#Comment_119626108

Who would the opposition be?

stephen_n · 16-09-2022 01:37PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626159#Comment_119626159

Financial gain? Where on earth would the financial gain come from. From an emerging Ireland team playing Currie Cup teams?

If the costs are covered for the IRFU, they would be doing well. This won’t attract large crowds or TV money that’s for sure.

16-09-2022 01:37PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626159#Comment_119626159

It could well be. I wouldn't think its a gainer, but I think Toyota's commitment to SA rugby seems to indicate a certain willingness on their part to pay some of the costs for these sort of initiatives, so it might be the case that it isn't costing them a huge amount either.

ClanofLams · 16-09-2022 01:41PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626187#Comment_119626187

Well it’s sponsored by Toyota, it’s the Toyota challenge or something. This all seemingly happened very quickly, i dont recall anything being announced at such short notice previously involving an Ireland tour, maybe someone had a brainwave in May or maybe Toyota made a call. None of us know, as you like to say yourself.

stephen_n · 16-09-2022 01:48PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626220#Comment_119626220

No you’re right, we don’t know the ins and outs of the finance around this. It just seems a very very strange conclusion to come up with. Given the stated aims and comments from those involved in organizing the tour.

sydthebeat · 16-09-2022 01:54PM

so we've gotten to the stage of "playing these games doesnt matter" from a player development point of view.

id argue anyone thinking that has no clue about high level professional team sports.

shure why do teams bother playing pre season friendlies

ClanofLams · 16-09-2022 01:55PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626282#Comment_119626282

I don’t know what the stated aims and comments have to do with it, if it were related to financial reasons they won’t say that obviously.

This was announced late Julyish or early August I think? Very little notice and provinces seemingly hadn’t heard about it much earlier.

Maybe someone had a brainwave or maybe Toyota made an offer, the latter seems more likely to me personally.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 16-09-2022 02:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626220#Comment_119626220

What became this tournament was initially floated as an A team competition for the provinces in South africa.

Toyota would pay travel and expenses for 4 provincial a teams to travel.

Then in June a couple of the Currie Cup teams involved got knocked out and Toyota cutting their sponsorship suddenly I saw rumblings of 2 combined a teams.

Leinster/Connacht and Munster/Ulster seemed to be the rumoured pairs.

Then suddenly it was emerging Ireland travelling.

aloooof · 16-09-2022 02:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625759#Comment_119625759

But even if it is, who cares? What do the IRFU owe to this competition at this juncture? Irish provinces have dominated it since its inception, winning it 13 out of the 21 years its existed. Regardless of what happens with this tour, the Irish sides will likely be at the business end of the competition once again this season.

Tbh, it's pretty easy to tell this comes from the fan of a team that was won the majority of those 13, and 4 of the last 5. And, indeed, is least impacted by this.

When teams 2nd thru 8th were competing to secure a knock-out spot and/or home advantage in the final rounds last season, Leinster were able to field a really young team (who were pretty good) in 2 games in SA, as they were clear at the top. Good for them, that's their prerogative.

But the other Provinces simply don't have the same depth. And we know the margin for error is likely to be small again this season.

We finally have a domestic competition that's worth winning, and are likely to have a season without Covid distuption for the first time since 2018/19. It'd be huge for Ulster or Munster to win it this season. And the IRFU have removed 35 players from the competition outside a Test window.

I don't think it's as massive a problem as some others on here, but I absolutely understand why Ulster and Connacht fans in particular are annoyed by this.

awec · 16-09-2022 02:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626332#Comment_119626332

Pre-season friendles are to help get players fit and back into match practice after a few months break, syd. Do you think the provinces play pre-season for player development?!

Playing against Currie Cup teams will no more prepare a player for test rugby than playing AIL will prepare them for a Champions Cup game. I am sure you know this.

16-09-2022 02:10PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626336#Comment_119626336

Some of that is utterly irrelevant.

In the round, is this disruptive to the provinces, yes. How disruptive? That's a matter of debate on a team by team basis.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing on those points.

Within the last few pages of this thread there is the hyperbolic language calling this a "disaster", "absolutely stupid", "bizarre", "IRFU screwing over the provinces", "ridiculous", "incredibly stupid", "disrespectful" and, my personal favourite, "This is worse than anything the WRU have ever done. It's worse than the 4th test in the Autumn. This is, IMO, the clearest indication we have ever seen that the powers that be do not care whatsoever about the URC."

It's all completely over the top.

stephen_n · 16-09-2022 02:11PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626336#Comment_119626336

The decision was made based on the tour of NZ and the Māori games. Of course we wouldn’t have heard much about it.

If the IRFU wanted to make money, they would play a fourth game outside the Autumn window. Which would generate far more income than this tour ever could.

In general tours cost money for the touring side and generate money for the home sides. For Ireland to play another international in Autumn. It would probably mean between 5-7 million in revenue.

How much do you think Toyota are putting up. For a second and third string Irish team. Playing against Currie cup teams. This is a replacement for the provincial A teams touring down there. Andy Farrell or someone in the Irish management identified a need to do this. So grafted it on to an opportunity that already existed. An agreement between the IRFU and the SARFU.

The idea that this is somehow a money making exercise is bordering on conspiracy theory stuff.

aloooof · 16-09-2022 02:14PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626332#Comment_119626332

If this tour had happened in pre-season, I don't think there'd have been as much criticism.

16-09-2022 02:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626387#Comment_119626387

A major reason why Leinster have won so many of those is down to their unrivalled depth. Obviously there are a variety of factors around that, but I think it's fair to say that over the past 10 years Leinster (and Ulster) have been more willing to back young players earlier than Munster or Connacht. I know this evolved for Munster under JvG, but previous to that they were frequently rightly criticised for an apparent unwillingness to give younger players a shot.

It's not a healthy position to be in from the perspective of trying to make the playoffs anyway when teams are so heavily reliant on such a shallow squad of players.

I think the amount of additional rugby happening this year (between the Emerging Ireland series, the Munster-SA game, Ireland A v NZ A, and then a full November slate) is a big positive, because it will force all of the provinces to dig deeper into their playing pool reserves and blood more players.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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