Covid vaccines - thread banned users in First Post

Dohnjoe · 12-08-2022 04:57PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119464867#Comment_119464867

So no conspiracy from you, got it.

Big Bag of Chips · 12-08-2022 05:02PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119464115#Comment_119464115

@King Mob after over 10 and a half thousand posts the thread is entitled to move on from the original topic. This is a discussion forum - where people discuss topics. You don't get to tell anyone they are "wasting time". If you feel a poster is wasting your time by posting you are free to not read or respond. Amend your posting style on this thread, or you will thread banned.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119464703#Comment_119464703

similarly @Dohnjoe it is not compulsory, or indeed mandatory to read any thread. If you are tired of it you can move on. Covid vaccines are a contentious topic. With some people believing it is a conspiracy cooked up by pharma companies to make money. The topic will remain open in this forum for as long as it continues to be discussed. People are free to participate in the discussion - or not.

Do not comment on or question moderator instruction on thread. It is considered offtopic and will results in a thread ban.

Dohnjoe · 12-08-2022 06:25PM

Right. The forums on this site seem to have wildly different approaches to this. Anyway, on the flip side, this does seem to be the most apt forum for the subject matter.

Moving on from all that, even my ardent anti-vaxxer friend seems to have become more mute on the subject, almost as if there's a realisation that everyone around him is not dropping dead, or perhaps even realising a fringe belief is not worth losing friends, even family over. So there's some glimmer of hope for those caught up in the cult of this.

kernkraft500 · 12-08-2022 07:31PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119464867#Comment_119464867

but you are though... it's quite funny that you linked a page which proved you were wrong and you're still arguing compulsory and mandatory are the same thing, when they're not.... it's quite funny all of this pontificating when you haven't a breeze

Fr0g · 12-08-2022 08:16PM

"why would not taking the vaccine cause people to die of something other than covid"

https://rumble.com/vtxi1h-open-science-sessions-how-flawed-data-has-driven-the-narrative.html

hometruths · 12-08-2022 08:50PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119465494#Comment_119465494

The compulsory vaccination law in Austria was coercive. And you can take that as a fact.

kernkraft500 · 12-08-2022 08:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119465762#Comment_119465762

It was... I never said it wasn't... key word being compulsory

still doesn't take away the fact you haven't a breeze between mandatory and compulsory

hometruths · 12-08-2022 09:54PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119465771#Comment_119465771

So if the vaccination law was compulsory, and compulsory is coercive, finally we can agree some people were coerced and put under pressure to get vaccinated after all. Who'd have thought it.

Disputing that fact is how this stupid debate about the difference between mandatory and compulsory kicked off in the first place. But any supposed difference is irrelevant now anyway.

kernkraft500 · 12-08-2022 10:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466018#Comment_119466018

no, what kicked it off was you saying mandatory was coercive... which legally it isn't.. you just failed to accept that..

I never said nobody was coerced (in a general sense, sure look at China, or another European example, over 60's in Greece) ... I did however ask for examples of coercion in Ireland as all there ever has been in place was mandates for vaccination, which meant legally everyone had a choice.

hometruths · 12-08-2022 10:09PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466036#Comment_119466036

so if you do agree that people were coerced to get vaccinated, how do you square that with the claim that nobody was put under any pressure to get vaccinated?

are you now going to try and argue that coercion does not involve pressure?!

kernkraft500 · 12-08-2022 10:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466077#Comment_119466077

in certain countries they were... in Ireland and the UK they weren't, it's fairly explanatory

if that pressure involved threats or force, it's coercion... mandates aren't threats or force, you have an option to follow it or not.

hometruths · 12-08-2022 10:54PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466121#Comment_119466121

We got there in the end.

kernkraft500 · 12-08-2022 11:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466225#Comment_119466225

got where? I never mentioned coercion wasn't used elsewhere and didn't dispute it..

your use of mandatory incorrectly which you've been clinging onto, even though you posted links showing you were incorrect, was the issue..

You used it numerous times to make out coercion was used when this was blatantly false

Headless_1916 · 12-08-2022 11:25PM

Just happened to click through to this thread as it's 'trending' currently. Very confusing; the discussion here had me questioning my own understanding of what the word 'mandatory' meant. So I checked a dictionary.

man·da·to·ry

/ˈmandəˌtôrē/

See definitions in:

All

Law

Politics

adjective

required by law or rules; compulsory.

"wearing helmets was made mandatory for cyclists"

Then, I thought 'so we use compulsory to describe mandatory. I wonder what compulsory means?'

com·pul·so·ry

/kəmˈpəlsərē/

adjective

required by law or a rule; obligatory.

involving or exercising compulsion; coercive.

"the abuse of compulsory powers"

Feels like one would have to be quite obtuse to claim that mandatory is not compulsory; it's kind of the entire point that mandatory is compulsory in actual usage. Mandatory does not mean 'if you personally feel like it', does it? What a strange argument, regardless the underlying topic of discussion. Could whoever thinks mandatory is not compulsory send me a link to the post where they defended that stance? I scrolled through a few pages but didn't find anything and sadly the thread is yuge enough I gave up ;)

Igotadose · 13-08-2022 06:52AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466349#Comment_119466349

Really, 10 posts in and this is the one you choose to respond to? Are you bad to the bone?

Kernkraft explained the terms. Not sure why you don't understand it. B2B was always on about his feelings, as the standard anti-vaxxer technique is to insist one proves a negative, I contend you are B2B under a rereg (with a clever Irish-themed name.) Prove me wrong.

kernkraft500 · 13-08-2022 07:07AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466349#Comment_119466349

if you go look up any word in a dictionary, you will find numerous synonyms to describe it.... mandatory and compulsory are synonymous with each other...

synonymous doesn't mean equal to though...

from a legal stand point mandatory and compulsory are not the same thing...

Compulsory being the highest level of compliance required, will encompass something that's mandatory or obligatory.....

But if something is mandatory, it is not compulsory...

@hometruths is arguing (but saying they're not) that these are the same thing.... they even posted a link to a legal dictionary proving themselves wrong... and has been going round the houses under the guise of "revisionism" saying they are the same, without doing an ounce of research on the legal technicalities of the terms...

I deal with this sort of "legal red tape" regularly, but hey, I'm just a random off the internet, if you go to a solicitor, they will happily tell you the same thing for a fee....

Mandated Vaccinations - are they legal? - Boylan Lawyers

hometruths · 13-08-2022 07:17AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466349#Comment_119466349

Welcome to the thread, this sort of thing is routine here. As is Igotadose's input. Mandatory means optional and "Kernkraft explained the terms. Not sure why you don't understand it."

😂🤣

Amusingly it started during a discussion in which I claimed some posters here were denying some inconvenient truths. And they still haven't figured out that the more they go on arguing that mandatory means optional the more they prove my point.

kernkraft500 · 13-08-2022 07:22AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466827#Comment_119466827

like I said before, just because you don't think it's true, doesn't make it so...

On the back of that, could you let me know when you were forced to take the vaccine?

Fighting Tao · 13-08-2022 07:23AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466827#Comment_119466827

Seeing that you have already disproved your point, yes they are proving that your point was wrong.

hometruths · 13-08-2022 07:24AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466834#Comment_119466834

And as I have already said to you just because I personally was not coerced into taking the vaccine it does not mean anybody else was not. But this is a silly question as you've already admitted that some people were coerced or pressurised.

kernkraft500 · 13-08-2022 07:36AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466839#Comment_119466839

I agreed outside Ireland and UK, yes... you seem to make out it that I never did say that.... and the examples you gave of coercion involved vaccines being "compulsory"...

there has only ever been vaccine mandates in Ireland or the UK, which mean people still have the right to choose, if you have a right to chose, it's not coercion... can there be consequences of that choice, of course... but you're not being coerced (forced/threatened) ...

That is the difference, that is the point that has been explained numerous times, that you are trying to get out of by claiming "revisionism".

So, can you give me these examples of coercion under these mandates that you mentioned was happening earlier

hometruths · 13-08-2022 07:56AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466853#Comment_119466853

I agreed outside Ireland and UK, yes... you seem to make out it that I never did say that.... and the examples you gave of coercion involved vaccines being "compulsory"...

Now the revisionism is extending to the discussion. This initially kicked when you took issue with my use of the phrase "pushing the vaccines on people", and you said nobody was put under any pressure to take the vaccine, everybody had a choice.

WealthyB chimed in claiming coercion, and I agreed. You and others said nobody was coerced. I disagreed.

The ensuing lengthy discussion included me quoting a EU parliament assembly urging member states not to put any pressure on citizens, and you yourself referenced Ireland, the UK and the EU. It was clear we were discussing the policies within the EU - not just Ireland.

In response to one of DohnJoe's routine attempts to deflect away from the conversation I replied:

I'm stating unambiguously that there is a dangerous and relentless revisionism that surrounds all things covid vaccine. That's what I am seeking discussion about.

In reply I get people saying things like mandatory vaccination is not coercion and insufficient data is in fact extremely comprehensive data.

Which rather proves my point.

Odyssey took exception to this and posted:

You are now using this to argue that people on the thread said that "mandatory vaccination is not coercion".

So fine, find us the quote in context which states that mandatory vaccination is not coercion.

So I asked Odyssey to clarify his view on mandatory vaccination: For the avoidance of doubt do you consider mandatory vaccination to be coercion. Yes or no?

To which you replied:

nope... because mandatory does not equate to compulsory.... you still have the choice not to take any vaccine.

And you've been making a fool of yourself ever since.

kernkraft500 · 13-08-2022 08:31AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466885#Comment_119466885

negative...

nothing foolish about legal terminology..

It I went to court trying to say I was coerced under a mandate .... the judge would ask for for examples of how I was forced or threatened to do something....

If it was a case of "I just felt forced into it, because I needed a vaccine to go on holidays to Spain", you would be laughed out of court.

However, if it was a case that an employer said "under this mandate you need to be vaccinated or you'll lose your job"...

1) you could say no

2) the employer under the mandates in Ireland and UK was not allowed ask your vaccination status

3) you have quite a handy constructive dismissal case on your hands....

If the vaccine was compulsory in either situation above, it would be different outcomes again.

hometruths · 13-08-2022 08:46AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466965#Comment_119466965

So do you believe an employer insisting that an employee gets vaccinated or loses their job is coercive?

WealthyB · 13-08-2022 08:50AM

The Irish Council of Civil Liberties considered vaccine passports to be coercive.

That really should be the end of that aspect of the discussion. Unless some posters think they're more qualified to talk about civil liberties than the ICCL, in which case I'd invite them to put their medals on the table.

As for the ridiculous mandatory vs compulsory diversion, allow Regina Doherty a wry smile

"my stupid mandatory but not compulsory line - Regina Doherty on the rocky road of ministerial life"

www.thejournal.ie/regina-doherty-interview-2-3762558-Dec2017/%3famp=1

kernkraft500 · 13-08-2022 09:07AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466986#Comment_119466986

do you even read posts? :-D or do you just read until you see a disagreement and start typing a response?

I gave an example of just that... in Ireland and the UK, that would be an open an shut constructive dismissal case, as the vaccines were only under mandate for certain scenarios... not compulsory...

However, to caveat that, if you work in a multinational, but based in Ireland, you would be subject to the laws of the country you are paid from under terms of employment.

kernkraft500 · 13-08-2022 09:11AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466995#Comment_119466995

Regina Doherty was an absolute **** for putting an extra barrier in place for people to access social service by putting this mandate in place...

But from a legal standpoint, she was correct in what she said.

Was it right morally... I don't think so.

hometruths · 13-08-2022 09:19AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119467027#Comment_119467027

do you even read posts? :-D or do you just read until you see a disagreement and start typing a response?

I gave an example of just that... in Ireland and the UK, that would be an open an shut constructive dismissal case, as the vaccines were only under mandate for certain scenarios... not compulsory...

I was just double checking because previously you said nobody was put under any pressure to get vaccinated, nor were they coerced, which is what led to this ridiculous mandatory means optional argument.

Forgive me, but when somebody posts such gibberish that mandatory vaccination is not coercive because it is not compulsory, it is wise to clarify what actually they think they mean when they post something.

Fighting Tao · 13-08-2022 09:20AM

HSE and and Garda staff dancing hasn’t been mentioned in a while. I wonder will it be a tangent again soon.

kernkraft500 · 13-08-2022 09:42AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119467064#Comment_119467064

I said nobody was coerced into getting the vaccine in Ireland and the UK.... majority of people wanted to get the vaccine...

You then tried to tie up being mandated as being coerced, and jumbled compulsory in there too.... when I asked for specific examples of this happening in the UK and Ireland you mentioned Austria...

were there people who felt pressure for social reasons, of course... did they have a choice still not to get it... yes they did ... i.e. they were not forced or threatened to get it i.e coercion

you have this complex of having to be right about absolutely every point you're trying to make, which is quite funny, because trying to re-label law interpretations of words from well beyond COVID as revisionism is absolutely comical.

Covid vaccines - thread banned users in First Post

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