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Future of warfare (How should Ireland build their millitary)

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  • it is much easier to defend than attack, expecially since we are an island. The attackers would need to be multiple times larger. And the point of drones UAV, is that people wouldnt have to die despite us been a small population. The other is the fear factor, no army will attack if they know it will come at a high cost. The Russians playing war games of the coast of Cork is showing that they have no respect for our current military situation



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,813 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    You need to plan for a worst case scenario…

    have and not need is a better situation then need and not have.

    problem is without a deterrent which we have nothing of…

    no air force, the Aer Corps with only a logistical and support function. No jet fighters…not one

    the Navy with 7-8 ships,…..over 27,000 squared kilometres of territorial waters surrounding us….

    We are an island on the edge of Europe, a tactical and logistical benefit to any aggressor or foe of Europe .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,499 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    'Have and not need' is not an argument that will fly with the average Irish person.

    If the Government secure funds to achieve LoA 2.5 with a view to further increases as the DF capacity to take on new capabilities grows bigger, it will be a serious achievement in itself.

    While scenario planning is very important, they'll be aiming for the middle ground of 'most likely', not 'worst case' and that's what the Commission report is all about. Worst case scenarios are the longest of odds.

    And even right now, look at the successes Ukraine are having against a big old style mechanised force. The old maxims are out the window. All over the World, Governments will be looking at their standing armies and thinking, are these people any use to me, or should I invest in smart, small and mobile?

    We're lucky in that respect, we have a chance to begin our serious investment with almost a blank sheet.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,727 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    They have bunkers with weapons ready for use also tank parks for similar use. They have mountain passes and bridges mined and ready. Men of fighting age have to spend 2-4 weeks in training each year for the reserves. I don't think that indicates their cities going down without a fight?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,030 ✭✭✭jackboy


    I worked with lots of Swiss in an old job I had and they said that was the plan. They said it was because defending cities would cause mass civilian casualties and destruction of the cities and they would lose anyway so no point. It sounded like their military was really cold and calculated, all about causing maximum pain to the invaders but not giving their own lives cheaply.


    Who knows, maybe things will change after what we are seeing in Ukraine. I assume all militaries in the world will try to reset after this.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,384 ✭✭✭sparky42


    They also have overpasses built for being used for supporting their fighters, which will be F35s of course.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    The emerging philosophy for Defence is join a reliable Military Alliance. I am worried about the overall reliance of NATO given that it's Superpower member was late joining in both WW1, and WW11. They were also tardy in meeting the needs of Ukraine which were met from Day 1 by its Neighbours and the EU in general. The US reliability will depend largely on the Party in Power and who is in control of the Legislative Houses. Those with similar views to Trump could wind up abstaining from needed concerted action. We should strive to join a strong EU alliance and share all aspects of the Defence of Europe at Military, Trade, Medical, Banking and Cyber Security Levels.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    How we should build our military requires us to consider a number of points. Since we don't have a specific Arms industry we must select a constant source of arms from an agreeable steady supplier/country. It implies a certain amount of interaction including training with source countries. All would be easier if our build up included training at formation level with friendly nations on a regular basis.

    Historically our neutrality emanated from a reluctance to join any alliance that included Britain who was seen as an occupier of part of our country. Finding a way around that conundrum will support a worthwhile military advancement. Perhaps bilateral pacts with those that are agreeable?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    bad news again today via media, highlighting the reduction in capability due to Technician shortage. perhaps we need in the first place to mitigate shortages by ceasing to close Apprenticeship Schools and introduce a quota scheme for departures at all levels of skills.

    The RN after swingeing cuts in personnel met long term needs by contracting BAE Systems to "run" certain parts of the Fleet. They have BAE doing day to day maintenance on 10 Minesweepers, 8 HUNT Class and two SANDOWN. Six are in Plymouth, all HUNT Class, and 4 are in Middle east, 2 Hunt and 2 Sandown. It is a complete maintenance system including GRP hulls and a reengining programme. To augment they have a ready to go RN Forward maintenance team that can deploy in support when necessary.

    Needed assets must Not remain unused in times of need.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,184 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    No Western army will attack if it comes at a high cost. The Chinese treatment of its citizens during COVID and the Russian invasion of Ukraine show that high cost is not an issue for some.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    When will a western alliance attack. When it is clear you must roll the En up and push back. North Africa, Sicily, Normandy, and crossing the Rhine, comes to mind. The bigger problem is the current potential to leave a divided nation behind with bits excised and have a festering future like North South Korea, North South Vietnam, and of course Ireland. It is still festering in India and the Punjab. Map redraws are future wars. It leaves deterrence and self defence as the only option short of war. It also puts the wisdom of soft Power in prospect. Better to help your neighbour in good days and bad and avoid wrecking his property and killing his kith and kin.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,727 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    West Cork fishermen win again!

    First Putin now Macron.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,727 ✭✭✭saabsaab




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    Just a few figures for parliament to consider now that our population has reached 5.1 million. If we use a percentage basis to calculate the size of defence Forces, we should be thinking somewhere between 1% and 0.5%. At the lower figure we should aspire to 25,000 including reservists. This implies that we must provide development room for expansion and stop selling off or repurposing Military real estate. It is important that we decide how big to ensure that we equip in proportion and become operationally relevant.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,274 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    In Regards to Military property

    Would we not nearly better off starting from scratch and Building 6/8 new modern purpose built bases located at what ever the military leadership deam stratgeic locations which include good standard living quarters instead of spending arm and leg on military installation network that was designed centurys ago for an occuping Military force rather than a Modern Irish Defence Forces



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    Possibly, but I don't trust hidden agenda's and grandiose repurposing of FREE Defence lands. I agree we need to build fit for purpose barracks and naval bases. Counting all vessels, including ones in the Mortuary, we need space for 9 medium ships , plus one MRV, two NZ Craft, and 4 coastal craft. Right now we need a substantial second Port of Refuge for all our ships plus suitable shore based buildings for personnel, stores and Command.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,274 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    You could nearly close Collins and Sarsfield and instead of super prison at Kilworth have a Major Military Base servicing all of Munster



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Thats true. Superb facility Kilworth. Envy of many of our European allies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75 ✭✭nokpam


    We need missile detectors and radar at the least; we could at least pretend to know what's going on in the world! That Russia was testing missiles off the coast of Ireland in February, followed by France also testing missiles in the same location more or less just last week is not a coincidence.

    Or we could just hope that Britain will protect us as usual and then declare ourselves to be neutral but rebels. Rebels me hole.

    It's shorter from Ireland to NY or DC than it is from other ends of Russia.

    Tax in the UK is far less than in Ireland yet they are extremely well armed. They do owe us one but I think that we're strategically a very weak spot.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75 ✭✭nokpam


    Basically, our waters are closer to NY than if Russia tried to bomb the other way around i.e going clockwise.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75 ✭✭nokpam


    We're claiming helplessness. It's tiring and embarrassing. Finland is now joining NATO. Ukraine invited to join the EU along with Moldova. Ireland doesn't appear to have the remotest clue as to what is going on. RTE has a lot to answer for.

    If you don't read multiple media sources, you're essentially just reading propaganda.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75 ✭✭nokpam


    We have access to multiple sources of information from different perspectives these days but most Irish still in Ireland rely on RTE.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75 ✭✭nokpam


    It's the 'soft' tech that we need. Not artillery. And tech is what we're good at.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75 ✭✭nokpam


    We would never be invaded. No need to as we have nothing Russia wants. Our waters and unprotected areas are what Russia can exploit.

    But hey! We've got fishermen!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75 ✭✭nokpam


    I know that we don't do well at cooperating with either the EU or the Brits, but, with a lunatic at large.............?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    I'm afraid the powers that be know exactly what is going on and have made forced choices on the PDF to shift it from 14,500 to 9,500 personnel following the Report on the Commission on Remuneration and Conditions in the Defence Forces July 1990. With the latest Census we are at 5.1m population and should aspire to a PDF, inclusive of reserves, of 25,000 or 0.5% of Population.

    If budget remains static and pay increases then numbers , conditions, and capital acquisitions are moved downwards.

    As regards media, most news is orchestrated and often seasonal and topical. it can be led by lobbyists, financial interests, political parties etc. Large parts of media are used to eulogize entities and those making money out of the Irish environment. We are the dearest country in Europe, we are leaders in Medical, Chemical and technical output. we HQ some of the world's biggest tech Corporations and yet we minimise Defence and Social protection so much so you would think strange non-national Gurus are in charge.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,727 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Plusone on the fishermen but who says Russia is our likely enemy? More likely nearer to home. What we need is to make it too hard for what it may be worth to a rogue state.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75 ✭✭nokpam


    Currently Russia is the one invading countries who are not our allies.

    The UK is in NATO. They're not rogue. Just arrogant twats lol.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75 ✭✭nokpam


    The thing is that if the UK touched Ireland now, I'm pretty sure that the wrath of 1000 generations would be unleashed on them lol so the UK aren't a military force to be reckoned with from our personal standpoint. Their power is in wealth and international power. Militarily, there is no point arming Ireland heavily. It would be the equivalent of arming Barbados heavily; not terribly useful. We would only ever be a target from which to base nukes to the UK or the US. From that point of view, we could do with some sort of defensive weaponry I suppose should Putin decide to set up base camp in Wicklow lol.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75 ✭✭nokpam


    To be honest, I'm not sure who's running things these days as some recent Supreme Court decisions in the US have been questionable to say the least. Who is buying those dudes?



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